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Free Schnail Mail for life

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Re: Free Schnail Mail for life

#71

Post by BitMastro »

autotravis wrote: post #68
ruswick wrote: post #59

This argument is really vacuous and makes an inappropriate analogy. First, we need to distinguish between attaching ads to the mail experience versus injecting them into the actual content . In the original post, this service would actually open these letters and insert ads into them. This is not even remotely comparable to what most email providers do. They insert ads around the service, but never actually alter the…

> This is not even remotely comparable to what most email providers do. They insert ads around the service, but never actually alter the content of the email http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57594819-93/google-starts-p...

And how is this related to "altering the content of the email"?

Re: Free Schnail Mail for life

#72

Post by masnick »

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #52
masnick wrote: post #10

In my opinion, this kind of argument is demagoguery and ignores practical security concerns. For the average person, which is more likely? (1) A hacker taking over their email account to get bank info, etc. (2) Some nebulous threat from Google having too much information about you. Google and Gmail offer some of the best security controls and threat detection of any webmail provider that I've seen (pioneered two-fact…

I disagree with the premise that the large scale systematic privacy violations and surveillance by on the worlds most powerful corporations is the minor threat. In my opinion, this is the greater threat to our society, and individual criminals compromising individual email accounts is just minor criminal activity, which has always existed in one form or the other. I believe you mistake immediacy for relevance.

I think government surveillance is an issue because people can be arrested or harassed for things. I still don't see what harm can come from a private company having my data as long as they don't share it or use it for something nefarious. I don't see the threat of that happening with google.

To be clear these are two very separate issues: government surveillance and privacy policies of corporations.

We agree on the first point and disagree on the second.

If I'm wrong on the second, please give me a plausible example of something google would do with user data that would be actually harmful besides sharing with the government.

Re: Free Schnail Mail for life

#73

Post by modernerd »

What if Schnail Mail automatically filtered postal junk mail so you never had to receive another piece again?

What if it let you search the contents of every printed message you'd ever sent or received?

What if it let you send international mail, with attachments, for free?

What if it protected you and more susceptible friends and family from postal scams?

What if it informed you that your recipient no longer existed at the address you used?

What if it let you undo sending of mail you regret writing?

...

A free postal mail service that truly replicated Gmail's functionality would probably appeal to many, even with inserted ('relevant') ads and all the privacy issues.

Paid versions of such a service already exist (e.g. https://www.earthclassmail.com/ ). A free equivalent could be pretty disruptive.

Re: Free Schnail Mail for life

#74

Post by BitMastro »

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #54
derefr wrote: post #2

I don't know why this still surprises people, or why Google is being singled out here. Information is transmitted by copying. Every provider has to look at and analyze your messages if they want to do clever things to them, like let you search your archived mail server-side. Even if they don't do anything with your messages themselves, they're still compelled by the government to parse through it all. Nothing is safe…

Once again, this is a fundamental mistake especially techies seem to make when it comes to privacy. Privacy isn't about what is and what isn't publicly accessible, it's about what you do with that information . It's a violation of privacy for any company to follow me around in a public space and record my movements. It's a violation of privacy for a company to use the data I've given them for any other purpose than t…

"Public places. It may sound obvious, but you have little to no privacy when you are in public. When you are in a public place your actions, movements, and conversations are knowingly exposed to the public. That means the police can follow you around in public and observe your activities, see what you are carrying or to whom you are talking, sit next to you or behind you and listen to your conversations — all without a warrant."

From the EFF https://ssd.eff.org/your-computer/govt/privacy

Re: Free Schnail Mail for life

#75

Post by BitMastro »

sp332 wrote: post #69
mynameisvlad wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because machines don't care what you do, or who you are. Humans potentially do. They can gossip about you, they can read, and understand, all your private emails and use that information against you.

Humans are slow. Gmail's computers are programmed to wring the most possible profit out of millions and millions of accounts. Seriously, I'm convinced the humans would do less damage.

I'm convinced of the opposite: humans judge basing on incomplete and incorrect data, they are often malicious and selfish and blinded by personal gain.

Computers don't have prejudices, don't have a motive, and work on the specific task without being sidetracked by feelings.

Re: Free Schnail Mail for life

#76

Post by theon144 »

modernerd wrote: post #73

What if Schnail Mail automatically filtered postal junk mail so you never had to receive another piece again? What if it let you search the contents of every printed message you'd ever sent or received? What if it let you send international mail, with attachments, for free? What if it protected you and more susceptible friends and family from postal scams? What if it informed you that your recipient no longer existed…

Most of these features are available even if you don't use Gmail though - the article's point wasn't about e-mail in general, just the invasiveness of Gmail.

Re: Free Schnail Mail for life

#77

Post by sp332 »

BitMastro wrote: post #75
sp332 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are slow. Gmail's computers are programmed to wring the most possible profit out of millions and millions of accounts. Seriously, I'm convinced the humans would do less damage.

I'm convinced of the opposite: humans judge basing on incomplete and incorrect data, they are often malicious and selfish and blinded by personal gain. Computers don't have prejudices, don't have a motive, and work on the specific task without being sidetracked by feelings.

Computers follow instructions of the programmers. If the programmer is good, the computer has the same prejudices. Specifically, if the programmer wants to find juicy gossip, a computer lets her do it faster. If the programmer respects users' privacy, so will the computer. (If she's not good, the computer has random prejudices. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_koan#Uncarved_block)

Re: Free Schnail Mail for life

#78

Post by modernerd »

theon144 wrote: post #76
modernerd wrote: post #73

What if Schnail Mail automatically filtered postal junk mail so you never had to receive another piece again? What if it let you search the contents of every printed message you'd ever sent or received? What if it let you send international mail, with attachments, for free? What if it protected you and more susceptible friends and family from postal scams? What if it informed you that your recipient no longer existed…

Most of these features are available even if you don't use Gmail though - the article's point wasn't about e-mail in general, just the invasiveness of Gmail.

My point was that people who use Gmail get more than a free mail service in return for their privacy.

The things that Gmail does best – search, spam filtering, scam warnings, simple attachments, innovative labs features like undo send – weren't offered by Schnail Mail, which invited you to trade your privacy for free postal mail alone.

Trading privacy for free mail alone would have little appeal to most. But Gmail offers more than that. A feature-matched physical mail equivalent to Gmail would make an ad-supported postal mail service far more compelling.

I suspect you'd also see more hands stay raised if you flipped the pitch to place the negatives up front ahead of a long list of potential benefits.

Re: Free Schnail Mail for life

#79

Post by Zikes »

DanBC wrote: post #55
Zikes wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Machine "reading" the email to glean useful advertising data != machine "reading" the email to find any excuse to label you a terrorist.

> machine "reading" the email to find any excuse to label you a terrorist Is there any evidence at all that this is happening? So far They don't need to do that, they use corrupt informants (Guantanomo) or stupid videos on YouTube (US teen "rappers").

Yes, there is. [1]

[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/05...

Re: Free Schnail Mail for life

#80

Post by Sauer_Kraut »

ultramundane828 wrote: post #42
Sauer_Kraut wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is singled out due to the humans behind the corporate facade complying, no one forced them to. I would hate to reduce it to binary but things like installation of proxy hardware (Blue Coat[1]) to monitor with or court orders for conscription of local hardware are. Without people collaborating along with the US government, then people... wouldn't be collaborating. Those within the USG would be forced towards al…

I may have missed some clarifications, so I feel the need to ask: Did the USG not force Google to comply with their demands, and also keep quiet about it? I know that was the initial story. Or is the issue that Google went above and beyond the USG's requests?

My definition of force involves things like threats of violence, firearms. FORCE.

People's definition of force here on HN seems to be "A written request by the USG."

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