Live data from Hacker News

Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

salon.com

141–150 of 186 posts

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we all please just take a deep breath and stop with the hyperbole. The US government is not planning to commit genocide against gay people or whatever ridiculous premise you're insinuating.

First they came for the terrorists, then they came after the drug dealers... You're right though, it is a ridiculous premise. There's no profit to be made from genocide.

> There's no profit to be made from genocide.

You should take a look at companies contracted by 3rd Reich government to run german concentration camps. They made A LOT of money.

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#142
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dismissive sneers at the opposition aren't an attempt to provoke or engage debate. They're an attempt to sideline it, and effectively shut it down.

Then I have been doing the wrong thing too....

I think you are entirely correct and that you have delineated the deep structure of the scenario we find ourselves in.

Are you familiar with the work of Ken Wilber who, standing on the shoulders of giants, popularised the ideas of Developmental Psychology that support your claim?

Hayden uses language in a specific way that indicates the centre of gravity of his consciousness is located in a very Conventional / Conformist / Concrete-operational place. He speaks in terms of heroic status, power, glory, rage, revenge; take what you need, power over others, force. The downside to all of this is anxiety, depression, phobias, bullying, terrorism etc etc.

This stage of development sees anything that isn't at the same stage as a threat, and tends to respond to everything with escalating violence / force / arrest.

It is the nature of this stage of psychological development to create threats where none exist, because it defines itself in terms of what occurs when those threats are push against.

Ultimately, what we most pressingly need is to work out how to move the world through this developmental stage before we manage to work ourselves in to some really atrocious place.

Each new development in technology represents a new development in consciousness, it brings with it new ways to connect and create together as a nation of people ever so less fixed to any one geographical area. I've seen Earth from space, didn't see any boarders. As well as all new and terrifying ways to annihilate ourselves.

Perceived through the framework of Developmental Psychology, as it was progressed by the above authors, and with an eye to the greater historical context this is all occurring in, it's all very predictable.

The "competing view", as you put it, that sees the world as a "collection of ad-hoc networks of ideas and social mechanisms, some forming, others dissolving -- clearly structured, but not at all hierarchical" is located at a stage of psychological development that is a full four stages above the one Hayden is speaking from.

To further support this refer to the works of Ken Wilber, particularly Integral Psychology it's end notes and references. Also, Jane Loevinger, Susan Cook-Greuter, Lawrence Kohlberg, and Abraham Maslow.

Edit: grammar

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed - it is interesting that the phrasing in the article was deliberately gender agnostic. What is the relevance of political correctness in the context of a boorish and petty insult?

Political correctness in the context of a boorish and petty assault? That's politics 101.

Touche ;)

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#144
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NSA did not spring out of the ground, either, and the Cold War has arguably been over since 1991 or so. Indirect democracy makes it very easy to eschew responsibility in terms of "I had a choice between candidate X and candidate Y; they both supported decision D. I didn't support it, but since I had to vote between either X and Y, I didn't have a choice, did I?". If the actions of the NSA were seen by American ci…

>If the actions of the NSA were seen by American citizens as such a major concern that they would not vote for a candidate who supported it, then we'd see major votes against one of them. If all the candidates were to represent interests opposite to those of their voters, then we'd see no votes for any. You've simplified this way too much, as if each voter only has one issue that they care about. Political strategist…

>The media is the reason for this. I wish I had some good idea that wasn't completely at odds with democratic principles.

Perhaps one of the problems with America today is that the right to broadcast whatever nonsense across the airwaves is considered a democratic principle.

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#145
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NSA did not spring out of the ground, either, and the Cold War has arguably been over since 1991 or so. Indirect democracy makes it very easy to eschew responsibility in terms of "I had a choice between candidate X and candidate Y; they both supported decision D. I didn't support it, but since I had to vote between either X and Y, I didn't have a choice, did I?". If the actions of the NSA were seen by American ci…

>If the actions of the NSA were seen by American citizens as such a major concern that they would not vote for a candidate who supported it, then we'd see major votes against one of them. If all the candidates were to represent interests opposite to those of their voters, then we'd see no votes for any. You've simplified this way too much, as if each voter only has one issue that they care about. Political strategist…

>The media is the reason for this.

I don't quite follow. It's not like there is some naturally occurring flow of newspapers, radio and television broadcasts that discuss with the correct, important issues in an intelligent way, and some sort of cabal (the media) has come in and suppressed all that so they could force toddlers and tiaras down their throats.

There are plenty of news outlets that are spending their money to broadcast the details of the NSA scandal as accurately as possible, and if people happen to find those outlets on their TVs, they change the channel to toddlers and tiaras as quickly as possible. Which goes back to the original (I think correct) point that most people don't find this particular issue as dire as many people think they should.

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#146
post #7

witches -> communists -> terrorists -> hackers...

    First they came for the communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

    Then they came for the socialists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for me,
    and there was no one left to speak for me.

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I have been doing the wrong thing too....

I think you are entirely correct and that you have delineated the deep structure of the scenario we find ourselves in. Are you familiar with the work of Ken Wilber who, standing on the shoulders of giants, popularised the ideas of Developmental Psychology that support your claim? Hayden uses language in a specific way that indicates the centre of gravity of his consciousness is located in a very Conventional / Confor…

I am afraid that I am almost entirely ignorant of psychological literature, and I shall seek to remedy my deficiency in the directions that you have mentioned, with my grateful thanks for your suggestions.

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#148
post #96

Michael Hayden is being provocative -- attempting to provoke debate. This is an excellent, laudable act, and should be warmly welcomed. So, here is my response:- There is an element of truth to what Michael Hayden is saying, although his analysis of the situation is enormously telling, and reveals a lot about the culture that prevails in the corridors of power. It is true that the internet is creating communities and…

Dismissive sneers at the opposition aren't an attempt to provoke or engage debate. They're an attempt to sideline it, and effectively shut it down.

I wonder if Michael Hayden reads any of this? Or even if there are any officials tasked with summarising & reporting on these opinions?

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely off-topic but I've this a few times now in different places. I'll come to the end of what I'm reading and there'll be a tl;dr at the frickin' _end_ of it! Isn't it supposed to be right up front so that if I am incredibly lazy and trusting I can just slurp the tl;dr and move on? When placed at the end is its meaning changed to something like "to summarize" or "in summation" ???

This construction {{point}}; {{elaboration}} tl;dr: {{point}} is about as redundant as it gets. For what it's worth, I take that form of "tl;dr" as emphasis, not as a literal tl;dr.

Cngratulations, you've unlocked the Jr High essay achievement.

  * tell me what you're going to say
  * say it
  * tell them what you said

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#150

"who haven't talked to the opposite sex in five or six years." This is the scariest aspect of the data collection. People like this have the data to identify homosexuals. Hell, I suspect that a lot of the rationale for the data collection was tracking Muslims. The potential this information has to facilitate genocide is astronomical and homophobes are in positions of power.

Can we all please just take a deep breath and stop with the hyperbole. The US government is not planning to commit genocide against gay people or whatever ridiculous premise you're insinuating.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN