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Chrome's insane password security strategy

blog.elliottkember.com

191–200 of 315 posts

Re: Chrome's insane password security strategy

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate how this appears to a novice, but we've literally spent years evaluating it and have quite a bit of data to inform our position. And while you're certainly well intentioned, what you're proposing is that that we make users less safe than they are today by providing them a false sense of security and encouraging dangerous behavior. That's just not how we approach security on Chrome.

I realized this several years ago and was pretty dumbfounded, and quite surprised I've never read about this until now. Can you explain how the Chrome passphrase works in more detail and why it isn't used in this situation. If I sync my google account to another computer I need to enter a passphrase to sync passwords. Why isn't this asked for when clicking 'Show'? It seems like a perfect additional place. Even if its…

Exactly what I was thinking, why don't they use it ?

Re: Chrome's insane password security strategy

#192

I'm the Chrome browser security tech lead, so it might help if I explain our reasoning here. The only strong permission boundary for your password storage is the OS user account. So, Chrome uses whatever encrypted storage the system provides to keep your passwords safe for a locked account. Beyond that, however, we've found that boundaries within the OS user account just aren't reliable, and are mostly just theater.…

Please tell me why everything needs to be taken so seriously. You wrote: "...bad guy can dump all your session cookies, grab your history, install malicious extension to intercept all your browsing activity, or install OS user account level monitoring software..."

It sounds like that computer owns nuclear bomb instructions.

Take a breath and one step back: How about if the kids likes to play with their friend and likes to stole his/her facebook passwords when the friend is in the toilet (others are playing games at the same time with their friend's computer).

Most of the kids do not think about dumping cookies, installing malicious extensions etc. They just like to look the password and use it later.

We do not ask from you to provide any master password. Why not only ask user's credentials (the pure end user, not administrator credentials)?

If I go to your computer while you are in toilet, can I come and change your password? Or can you agree that your following comment was not actually 100% correct: "...when you grant someone access to your OS user account, that they can get at everything..."

At least mine OS: 1. Ask me the old password before I can change it. 2. I'm running normal end user credentials, so by default I do not have admin credentials. And by this way, I have very limited credentials to do what ever I like...

Re: Chrome's insane password security strategy

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soft boundaries within the user account do nothing to protect you from exactly those scenarios either. Your protection is to lock your OS user account.

Hey Justin, I'm the author. I appreciate your sentiments, but I feel like they may be out of touch with the way real people are using computers in the wild. My suggestion is to seriously re-evaluate this approach in light of the actual use-case of how people perceive these passwords. It appears as though many, many users don't expect these passwords to be visible. This is an important thing to take into consideration…

who the hell uses the saved password feature? Seriously, its a password, everyone knows you should never write down you passwords. why would saving it be any different? Chrome still has to provide the feature to compete with other browsers, but just because a feature exists doesn't mean you should use it. Think about it, he was able to import passwords from another browser. What does that say about how other browsers store their passwords? It is a stupid assumption that a saved password is secure.

Re: Chrome's insane password security strategy

#194
post #181
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that a master password would just lead the user into a false sense of security. However, I feel that it should be make as hard as possible to find the user's password. A good safe is judged by the time required to break it. There is no safe that is unbreakable, you just need to put enough time, effort and noise to open it. Same thing could be applied here. Installing software, dump the cookies and so on…

"My point here is that there is little to no value" Personally speaking I've had plenty of occasions where I've logged into a site and saved the password then later Chrome doesn't recognise where to put the credentials on another page on the site (e.g. a header login vs a separate login page) - In those cases I'd rather just look to see what the password is and re-enter it than go through a password reset process.

Someone who can access your computer, unlocked, can login to your Facebook account (the password is saved), change the password, verify the email, re-save the new password, and it's just as easily "game over". You would never know what happened. Justin is absolutely right. His group is doing users a service by making these things more transparent. Folks who make exceptions based on this "security through obscurity" model should not be security tech leads.

Re: Chrome's insane password security strategy

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't open my chrome browser without unlocking my machine. You can't unlock my machine without 2fa. I don't walk away from my machine without locking it. So, technically, there is a master password if you lock your machine. Nb:not saying it is cool to be doing what they're doing.

The data on your disk isn't encrypted with two factor authentication though. If someone were to remove your disk drive and crack your password, that second factor doesn't really slow them down.

Actually, OSX offers FileVault which is on. The 2fa is a password and yubikey with static pass, so the whole pass is ~40 chars. FileVault uses AES-128 which should, combined with 40 char pass, at the least, slow them down (depending on who it is of course ;)

Re: Chrome's insane password security strategy

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you don't want people browsing your passwords, you can't ever give them access to your user account or your unlocked desktop. That's it, that is the entire solution. Nope. Just don't use Chrome. That's an even better solution.

Hahahahahhhh. Let me teach you a neat trick (I'll use firefox as an example, but this can be done in any browser because it's a "feature" of HTML). >Open firefox and navigate to a login page where your password is saved >Right click on password box and click inspect element >In the console, change type="password" to type="" >Move your eyes back to the password field Oh dear, what's this?! Protip: Don't store your pas…

Ha... The people complaining really are novices, looking for something to get outraged over. Every operating system allows multiple user accounts. I recommend people start learning how to use them.

Re: Chrome's insane password security strategy

#197

I'm the Chrome browser security tech lead, so it might help if I explain our reasoning here. The only strong permission boundary for your password storage is the OS user account. So, Chrome uses whatever encrypted storage the system provides to keep your passwords safe for a locked account. Beyond that, however, we've found that boundaries within the OS user account just aren't reliable, and are mostly just theater.…

I wholeheartedly disagree with several of the points you make here, and I think you're more or less ‘passing the buck’ on something which is most definitely your responsibility to take good care with.

On OS X, once you save a password using Safari, it is added to your login keychain. In order to then see that password* you must enter your login password again, be that via Safari's preferences dialog or the Keychain Access application. What Chrome does is it uses the same mechanism of storage as Safari (and indeed, requests access to the same encrypted keychain item) but never prompts the user for the login password to authenticate. This sets up a situation where Chrome actually circumvents and makes passwords originally stored in Safari less secure than they were initially. This is your responsibility, and no amount of theoretical grandstanding about physical access to a computer changes that.

You also talk about installing malicious browser extensions as another potential vector. I agree, and I think browser makers ought to take steps to require the current user to authenticate in order to install browser extensions. When you consider that a browser extension can act as man-in-the-middle to all your browser activity, it's astonishing that this isn't already the case. You have to prove you are the logged-in user when you change your password by providing the current password, so how is this any different?

When talking about security, there will always be holes, but they will be of differing practical value or risk depending on how they are exploited. Grabbing session cookies or internet history requires a certain level of technical proficiency, as does developing a malicious browser extension; installing said extension or typing chrome://settings/password into the address bar, on other hand, are easy enough that any kid who wants to get hold of his big sister's Facebook password can give it a go. Reducing the surface area of attack is every bit as important as ‘real’ security, here, and the stance you've set out above is that you aren't interested in that if it doesn't also provide real security. I think that's the wrong thing to do, and I urge you to reconsider.

*As people have pointed out, you can inspect the password via web inspector etc. This is another, serious security flaw and one that I think the HTML WG ought to look into.

Re: Chrome's insane password security strategy

#198
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters that you don't seem to understand the threat model here. You think your passwords are protected somehow in other applications, but they're simply not. The fact is that they're still trivially recoverable, and if the bad guy can read them at all than he already has access to fully compromise your entire OS user account. So, you're arguing that we take measures to make users think they're safe when they've a…

How does palming the problem off onto the OS help? At least the OS provides the choice to lock/leave open. Smacks of laziness, especially in a world where it often takes very little to deter people.

That's not a good idea, delegating, and when the OS gets compromised, the browser is to blame.

Re: Chrome's insane password security strategy

#199
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My point here is that there is little to no value" Personally speaking I've had plenty of occasions where I've logged into a site and saved the password then later Chrome doesn't recognise where to put the credentials on another page on the site (e.g. a header login vs a separate login page) - In those cases I'd rather just look to see what the password is and re-enter it than go through a password reset process.

Someone who can access your computer, unlocked, can login to your Facebook account (the password is saved), change the password, verify the email, re-save the new password, and it's just as easily "game over". You would never know what happened. Justin is absolutely right. His group is doing users a service by making these things more transparent. Folks who make exceptions based on this "security through obscurity" m…

Changing the password is a fair point that I hadn't considered

Re: Chrome's insane password security strategy

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the assumption is, if you cared at all about security, you would actually have a login password, and bother locking your computer? Or you might not just let random people sit down at your laptop and start using it without you being there?

That is not a good assumption. People care about their security and also care about the convenience of being able to let a friend or co-worker use their computer for seconds or minutes at a time without all their passwords being easily discovered. If I debug some code on a friend's machine he would not expect me to be able to open his Keychain and read his passwords. I would need a master password for that. Chrome sh…

Err, I think that's a bit of a strawman fallacy.

If you leave your computer unlocked in a public area, that's asking for trouble - which is the example I was referring to.

However, in your example, you cited giving your machine to a friend to debug code - in that case, you either trust your friend, or you don't.

If you don't trust your friend, why are you giving them your machine then.

It's like asking your friend to collect your letterbox mail - do you trust them enough to not open and read your mail? If you don't, then why are you entrusting them to collect your mail?

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