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Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

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Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#71
post #5

People need to start accepting that government != country; such people as such being called as "terrorists" or "communists" or other words that were bandied about as the bogeyman of the time are perceived as threats to the government by those most poised to profit from that government. A government that no longer represents the people, but corporations and those that benefit by it, will threaten those that question i…

>A government that no longer represents the people, but corporations and those that benefit by it

I guess it would surprise a lot of people that we have far more common "interests" with corporations and their success then we have opposing "interests". In other words, in most cases, the things that benefit corporations benefit the people (not everyone, always, and equally, of course).

Corporations are owned by people like you and me, composed of people like you and me, run by people like you and me, and paid by people like you and me.

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#72
post #30
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A government that no longer represents the people, but corporations and those that benefit by it, will threaten those that question its legitimacy as that is only obvious. A government elected with a reasonable majority arguably represents the people who elected them. Not represents as in "represents their interests", implying that they act on their behalf in their best interest. No, represents as in "they are the…

> represents as in "they are the image of what those who elected them want" I don't vote for who I want, I look at who has a chance of winning and vote for the lesser evil, because any other vote is practically meaningless. (Our voting system is stupid)

No. 100x no. That is how to waste your vote.

Voting for the "lesser evil" is only a good idea when the "greater evil" is so great that they will destroy the country. That has never been the case.

Voting for the "lesser evil" is actually worse than not voting at all because it tells the parties that being evil still gets them votes.

The only way political parties in the US change is through threat of losing enough votes. If you want change that the duopoly does not offer then you must vote your conscience even if it means that this "greater evil" person will win. Because in the long run the party that lost will have to incorporate the policies of the 3rd parties that are "stealing" their votes the next time around.

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#73
post #7

witches -> communists -> terrorists -> hackers...

You forgot file sharers, drugs and pedophiles. All of which have been since been said to fund the terrorism.

Which in the case of drugs, IIRC, is true. Didn't the CIA use cocaine trafficking to fund some black type ops?

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know exactly who Hayden was talking about, but various people on the Internet have done a lot more than "express support". Calls for "revolution" and "rioting in the streets" seem to pop up in comments on these stories on a pretty regular basis on various sites. But there have also been suggestions of more specific action, including shooting FISA court judges and others and one guy on Reddit speculating about…

All over it has been established that per-se democracy does not exist anymore. Meaning that wealthy and powerful have more democracy allotted to them than to the rest. Actually what is seems is that government is putting screws real tight on the lid because if whole FIAT dollar thing fails - there will be no more democracy and only Militarized police and thorough monitoring of the people will stop an extraordinary ev…

Reminds me of "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#77
post #3

So expressing support for Snowden is suggested to be a sign I might be a threat to a country. Way to accelerate the self-censorship (and the subsequent censorship of thought) that this whole surveillance disaster creates.

I don't know exactly who Hayden was talking about, but various people on the Internet have done a lot more than "express support". Calls for "revolution" and "rioting in the streets" seem to pop up in comments on these stories on a pretty regular basis on various sites. But there have also been suggestions of more specific action, including shooting FISA court judges and others and one guy on Reddit speculating about…

Various sites? Can you confirm? I don't read reddit because it really is lowest common denominator (it's the tabloid of the forums). But I haven't seen the comments you're referring to anywhere that I'd consider reputable.

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#78
post #3

So expressing support for Snowden is suggested to be a sign I might be a threat to a country. Way to accelerate the self-censorship (and the subsequent censorship of thought) that this whole surveillance disaster creates.

I don't know exactly who Hayden was talking about, but various people on the Internet have done a lot more than "express support". Calls for "revolution" and "rioting in the streets" seem to pop up in comments on these stories on a pretty regular basis on various sites. But there have also been suggestions of more specific action, including shooting FISA court judges and others and one guy on Reddit speculating about…

One wacko on Reddit and a few hyperbolic calls for protest hardly warrants a heavy handed response.

What about the constant over-reaction you hear from gun rights activists? You hear far louder and more violent statements directly from national TV pundits anytime the topic of gun reform comes up.

I don't understand why as a country we are okay with heavily armed, self-appointed militias spouting paranoid delusions about "the Feds," but somehow challenging the NSA in discussions on Internet forums is being considered dangerously close to terrorism.

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#79
I feel there is a fundamental mismatch of what constitutes a matter of national security.

All (?) nation states have a right to prevent their own destruction, but I think the triggers that set off the immune system reaction are important - I, and I think a lot of HN, would say there is a minimum level of expected harm before a matter is consider national security level - lets say for arguments sake a loss of 2% GDP or 1,000 dead. And the motivation of the persons is irrelevant - so the banking crisis of 2008 would be considered a national security matter by me, but two maniacs hacking a soldier to death on the streets of the UK would not (a crime yes, murder, yes, possibly politically motivated yes - but not a matter that threatens our nationstate)

However Hayden seems to be the reverse - there is no minimum level of harm (one life is too many, one defaced website is too much) but the political motivations of the people is important - so his views in the banking crisis and murders on the street seem reversed.

Maybe it is a useful viewpoint

Re: Cyberscare: Ex-NSA chief calls transparency groups, hackers next terrorists

#80
Michael Hayden is being provocative -- attempting to provoke debate. This is an excellent, laudable act, and should be warmly welcomed.

So, here is my response:-

There is an element of truth to what Michael Hayden is saying, although his analysis of the situation is enormously telling, and reveals a lot about the culture that prevails in the corridors of power.

It is true that the internet is creating communities and groups that do not fit into the old hierarchies of power and control. New communications technologies forge new arenas of discourse; they bring together new communities and interest groups, largely unconstrained by geography, culture, religion or (increasingly) language. These groups are beginning to find common cause, recognize their political power, and flex their (political) muscles.

It is natural and proper that those who benefit from the status-quo should feel nervous. This technological watershed (and the movement of movements that it has triggered) does indeed pose an existential threat to many organisations that predicate their existence on the primacy and sovereignty of the Nation State.

To labor the point: Notions of sovereignty and the plenipotentiary power of the state are weakened and undermined when individuals discover that their shared humanity cuts across international boundaries, and that the "tribe" to which they pledge allegiance is neither best defined nor best constrained in terms of militarily defensible contiguous geographical regions.

So, political and economic elites that are strongly aligned with the interests and primacy of the nation state really do face an existential threat, albeit a distributed, generally non-violent, tides-of-history type threat, rather than one that is focused around a particular "enemy" posing a specific and identifiable physical threat.

As I mentioned previously, Hayden's response to this threat is telling, and reveals much about his (and the Agency's) predispositions and cognitive biases.

Firstly, he thinks immediately of a physical threat - of hostile groups seeking revenge. He sees the world in terms of "friends" and "enemies", in terms of coherent and organised groups that can be treated as atomic units, and imbued with anthropomorphic characteristics: "anger", "revenge" and so on.

Secondly, he seeks to (at the same time) elevate and exaggerate the threat posed by this (notional) group, to make it relevant to the political mainstream, by speculating about attacks on civilian infrastructure - exactly what he would have needed to do during the inevitable internecine budgetary battles that he would have fought during his tenure with the NSA. As a former department head, this is necessarily his area of expertise, and the home turf on which he feels most comfortable.

This second aspect is particularly dangerous in that he seeks to incite and provoke the very threat that he spends so much effort warning us about. He ruthlessly exploits our tribalistic, pack-animal ancestry, conjuring up hostile groups where none exist; engineering conflict in a callous game of divide-and-conquer.

So, we have two threads in his speculation:-

The latter thread being part of a persistent and habitual strategy of scaremongering and conflict creation -- the better to secure a bigger slice of the budgetary pie for "the boys", is rather more transparent (and consequentially less interesting) than the former - the expectation that his foes will always form coherent and organised groups, capable of "making demands", and of acting in a manner amenable to anthropomorphic analysis. This contrasts rather well with one competing view -- that sees the world as a collection of ad-hoc networks of ideas and social mechanisms, some forming, others dissolving -- clearly structured, but not at all hierarchical.

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