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Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

paulgraham.com

11–20 of 99 posts

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#11
I think his 'theory' that discussions have more potential to be divisive when they involve our identity is dead on. His advice to 'keep your identity small', follows on from that premise well. Many people let their identity get polluted by what they do for a living to such an extent that they find it very difficult to cope when that is taken from them.

I have always been opinionated - I'm analytical and I enjoy forming opinions. Since moving to Europe, I have learned not to let political opinions become so ingrained that they become part of my identity. I have seen so many things done differently and still done well.

My question is this: Which things are worth being part of my identity? Values I esteem? Relationships I hold dear? Family roles? I think it is fair to say that belief (or disbelief) in God is a foundational human issue. If you are a believer, I think that belief demands something - it necessarily becomes part of your identity. I am a believer, so I don't know if same is true for non-believers.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#13
post #8

> "Politics, like religion, is a topic where there's no threshold of expertise for expressing an opinion." I agree that this is how people tend to see it. But it isn't really true. Like JavaScript or auto mechanics or animal husbandry, there is indeed a threshold of expertise for expressing a meaningful opinion. The value of somebody else's commentary on political issues is pretty much directly proportional to their…

>> "Politics, like religion, is a topic where >> there's no threshold of expertise for expressing >> an opinion." > I agree that this is how people tend to see it. > But it isn't really true. Like JavaScript or auto > mechanics or animal husbandry, there is indeed a > threshold of expertise for expressing a *meaningful* > opinion. But that's the entire point. Lots and lots of people feel that they have something to s…

Right, I am not disagreeing with the OP's premise.

I'm more just lamenting the truth of it -- and expressing disappointment that we haven't seen better discourse here on HN (where actually I think the signal to noise on stuff like node vs go, should you ever use rails for anything, etc, is actually pretty good, all things considered...).

Edit/Addition: What I mean to say is, the article isn't wrong, but the people it describes are wrong. Wrong to think that weighing in on a serious topic with essentially zero knowledge is acceptable, and wrong to conflate their politics with their identity. There is a bedrock of objective truth underlying virtually any political discussion, and it is just as stupid to conflate your own individual identity with a political party or TV station as it is to do the same thing with your smartphone OS or web app framework.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#14
I like pg's theory here, it's definitely something I try to live by (keeping my identity small), but I think he missed a key observation:

Religion (perhaps moreso historically) and especially politics are mine fields because there are so many inputs and so many outputs. That is to say almost any policy decision will affect a lot of people in a lot of different ways. He touches on this by discussing vague and definite questions, but he doesn't really explore that avenue.

For instance, consider the evaluation of how much a government program is going to cost. It doesn't matter how precisely you can answer that question because it just leads directly to other questions such as where the money will come from and what the results of the program will be. Even if the follow up questions are precise as well, they bloom out into innumerable consequences far and wide. It's not just that the bar of having an opinion is low, it's because these decisions actually affect all these people, and all in different ways. The fact that they may not have the expertise or knowledge to know the true affects and are easily manipulated by identity-appealing propaganda just exacerbates the problem, but it's not the root cause.

The more fundamental problem is that politics is a direct view into the massively interdependent organic ecosystem of large-scale human society. Even if you are the foremost expert on the implications of some political issue and your facts are indisputable, people will still (with good reason) disagree on the merits of those indisputable implications.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#15
post #4

Seems Paul "rediscovered" what Buddhism teaches us: You need to loose your ego to achieve Nirvana. With the difference that the Buddhists also tell you a method for going about this... :)

Heh, don't you see? By identifying as a Buddhist and classifying a particular bit of wisdom as "belonging" to that religion you are falling into exactly the trap that he described. I grew up in the Buddhist community and ironically the greatest trap that Buddhists fall into is pride. Similar to the technology community ;)

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#16
This reminded me of point #2 of a comment I just read [1] on mistakes journalists make:

> "Mention every possible debate on the subject, without attempting to either offer a conclusion or a new set of arguments for any of them."

Keeping your identity small may prevent you from participating in certain arguments but it doesn't make for a good story. I'd rather hear a spirited debate between proponents of radically different ideas than bland statements that scrupulously avoid engaging anyone's identy.

The more I think about it the more ridiculous it sounds to exclude things from one's identity. An exclusive identity is not any smaller than an inclusive one--it's just identified by its exclusions. Identity is who you are and thus can be no larger or smaller than the whole of you.

I think the real argument here is one for skepticism as can been seen in the second footnote:

> "A scientist isn't committed to believing in natural selection in the same way a bibilical literalist is committed to rejecting it."

Really?? First, I don't think biblical literalism requires a rejection of natural selection (unless that's shorthand for a naturalistic origin of life). Secondly, this statement itself seems like a religious argument in the sense that it implies scientists are somehow more detached and objective than biblical literalists.

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6171593

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#17

I think his 'theory' that discussions have more potential to be divisive when they involve our identity is dead on. His advice to 'keep your identity small', follows on from that premise well. Many people let their identity get polluted by what they do for a living to such an extent that they find it very difficult to cope when that is taken from them. I have always been opinionated - I'm analytical and I enjoy formi…

I am a believer, so I don't know if same is true for non-believers.

Well, everyone is a non-believer in something that others believe. Assuming you don't believe in, say, Isis, do you think that non-belief becomes part of your identity?

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#18
post #9

This was mentioned in the thread: "HN is Becoming 2005 Slashdot" ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6157485 ) It makes for an interesting read concerning speculation as to why HN is becoming less and less technical over time, and more about politics. Technical issues and articles take time to read, digest, and understand. It takes a minimum level of expertise to be able to comment usefully on technical issues, so…

Definitely interesting. I'd say if we want to actively fight the entropy of the social news mechanic (ie. the feedback loop of popularity winning and slight dumbing down of anything increasing popularity), then perhaps we should glance quickly at an article and then jump back and upvote it based a snap judgement of its technical depth. Of course we run the risk of upvoting well-dressed crackpot nonsense, but that's p…

I don't know if you guys proceed the same as me, but I merely open a tenth of links on home or new page.

Actually, when doing so, you can consider any opened link deserves an upvote, provided that at first glance, it is what the link title promised : it attracted your attention so may attract other people.

Nevermind if the point made in the linked article you upvoted is valid or not after a detailed review, the subject is interesting and may lead to interesting discussions - and top comments will instantly warn if the point is not valid.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#19
> A scientist isn't committed to believing in natural selection in the same way a bibilical literalist is committed to rejecting it. All he's committed to is following the evidence wherever it leads.

At the risk of responding out of identity, but also with the hope of contributing constructively despite having some identity at stake:

A literal interpretation of the bible doesn't preclude accepting natural selection as an ongoing, observable process. It may reject that process as the explanation of our species' origins. Those two are often conflated, contributing to the identity-driven, emotion-filled discussion that PG describes.

Regarding the main premise of the article, I think it's possible to have rational, logical discussions about topics in which identity is involved. They are more challenging than, say, discussing Javascript. But I don't think those discussions work well on the internet. They require trust (that both parties will be heard in good faith) careful check of emotions, motivations, and reasoning. Those are even more challenging without high-bandwidth communication aids like facial expressions and tone of voice.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#20
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely interesting. I'd say if we want to actively fight the entropy of the social news mechanic (ie. the feedback loop of popularity winning and slight dumbing down of anything increasing popularity), then perhaps we should glance quickly at an article and then jump back and upvote it based a snap judgement of its technical depth. Of course we run the risk of upvoting well-dressed crackpot nonsense, but that's p…

I don't know if you guys proceed the same as me, but I merely open a tenth of links on home or new page. Actually, when doing so, you can consider any opened link deserves an upvote, provided that at first glance, it is what the link title promised : it attracted your attention so may attract other people. Nevermind if the point made in the linked article you upvoted is valid or not after a detailed review, the subje…

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