Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders • Hacker News Board

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#81

Post by westicle » Wed, Aug 07, 2013, 2:06 AM UTC

drewblaisdell wrote: post #69

betterunix wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically cryptographers will define a security goal in rigorous terms, then prove that their system meets that goal (at least for "cryptomania" type applications like digital cash). There are good reasons for doing this: 1. It makes proofs of security possible, which make us a lot more confident about cryptosystems. 2. It allows us to be clear about what it means to "break" a system. If we are not clear about this,…

> Sure. Let's start with a thought experiment: I have something very rare, which has no practical uses but which is easy to give to others. Will you give me your car for a big pile of it? How does the success/value of gold not completely destroy this line of reasoning? I'm not saying it is destined for success or failure, just that this is not a coherent argument against Bitcoin.

I read that whole thought experiment assuming that "something very rare, which has no practical uses but which is easy to give to others" was cash.

Which is awkward.

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#82

Post by pydave » Wed, Aug 07, 2013, 2:08 AM UTC

westicle wrote: post #76

anologwintermut wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, startups have worse incentives. Startups have the idea that they can be bought out be someone. At which point any legal liabilities(form say inaccurate advertising as a meal replacement/health claims/long term health consequences/ death) are the buyers problem. Say what you will about "big food," but they will be around to be sued in 20 - 50 years. It means they have incentives to actually careful about wha…

Just wanted to correct this understanding. Just because I sell something doesn't make me exempt from the legal consequences of my actions prior. If I negligently claim that a product will make you healthier and it cripples you, then you can sue me regardless of whether I still own the product. Similarly, I could be prosecuted for dishonest advertising type offences (which aren't wiped clean simply by selling a busine…

So the founders are personally responsible for the actions of their corporation?

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#83

Post by josephpmay » Wed, Aug 07, 2013, 2:09 AM UTC

sowhatquestion wrote: post #67

ynniv wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that the interest comes from the radical branding. "Ensure" is associated with hospitals and the aging population, whereas "Soylent" is historically associated with dystopia and recently with some ambitious kids. One exit would be to create an energy drink-like (young target market) product that's just a re-branded Ensure. But if you're currently using Ensure, perhaps you know of other ways to improve on it…

Have you tried Ensure Complete? I got so impatient while waiting for my Soylent order to arrive that I actually did. First of all, it's loaded with sugar, and lacks Soylent's heavy dose of fiber to balance out the glycemic index. Result: sugar rush followed by a nasty crash. Secondly, it lacks some of Soylent's extras like creatine and MCT fats. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it's expensive: it would be almos…

Try Glucerna. It tastes pretty good, has a good glycermic index, and is pretty filling.

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#84

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 07, 2013, 2:10 AM UTC

zorpner wrote: post #70

sowhatquestion wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried Ensure Complete? I got so impatient while waiting for my Soylent order to arrive that I actually did. First of all, it's loaded with sugar, and lacks Soylent's heavy dose of fiber to balance out the glycemic index. Result: sugar rush followed by a nasty crash. Secondly, it lacks some of Soylent's extras like creatine and MCT fats. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it's expensive: it would be almos…

> heavy dose of fiber to balance out the glycemic index. Result: sugar rush followed by a nasty crash Good God, man, that is not at all what fiber does, and has nothing to do with the role of fiber in diet. Please stop consuming this before you hurt yourself, and please stop talking about it before you hurt others.

[deleted]

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#85

Post by javert » Wed, Aug 07, 2013, 2:11 AM UTC

betterunix wrote: post #43

jafaku wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Bitcoin a bad idea, and how do we not know what we are doing?

1. Bitcoin has no rigorous security definition. 2. Bitcoin can be "attacked" (for some vague notion of what it means to attack a system that has no security definition) in polynomial time. 3. The economics of Bitcoin are extremely suspect and based on a poorly developed economic model, supported by neither the Austrian school nor by modern monetary theory. This is probably the underlying cause of the lack of a securi…

It's hard to downvote a thoughtful comment from a smart person, but you're just plain, flat out wrong.

Bitcoin is a heuristic for Byzantine concensus that requires 50% + epsilon of mining hash power to subvert.

This is not explicitly stated in the original paper, but the original paper comes very close.

I don't know what else you would want.

Regarding economics: All you need for a functioning currency is a supply of speculators who will bet on its future value and thus prop it up. That is only sustainable if the currency is the best at what it does for some meaningful niche (e.g. untrusted digital transactions). This is not part of any proir school of economics, but it's close to common sense, and is strongly supported by the success of bitcoin thus far.

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#86

Post by josephpmay » Wed, Aug 07, 2013, 2:13 AM UTC

javert wrote: post #79

sowhatquestion wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried Ensure Complete? I got so impatient while waiting for my Soylent order to arrive that I actually did. First of all, it's loaded with sugar, and lacks Soylent's heavy dose of fiber to balance out the glycemic index. Result: sugar rush followed by a nasty crash. Secondly, it lacks some of Soylent's extras like creatine and MCT fats. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it's expensive: it would be almos…

To add to this: I was in the same boat. Tried Nestle Boost because I didn't want to wait for Soylent. It left me hungry. Reportedly, Soylent doesn't do that. I also tried Ensure very briefly, and got the same impression, but I'm only like 98% sure that, like Boost, it will also leave me hungry.

I've been having Glucerna for breakfast every day for the past two months and it hasn't left me hungry. I don't know how well it works out as a complete meal replacement, but at least as a breakfast it's filling (and I'm normally a heavy breakfast eater whose very sensitive to hunger).

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#87

Post by sequoia » Wed, Aug 07, 2013, 2:15 AM UTC

... electrical engineering, computer science and entrepreneurship ... Industrial and Systems engineering. He has worked in finance, procurement, and logistics ...sales, finance, and marketing.... early stage technology companies ... Big Data ... operations and sales ... drives the sales channels ... sales engineer in the desktop video conferencing market ...

...and that's it. So I'm supposed to upend the foundations of my health & body based on the... "research" of a bunch of 20 something electrical engineers & marketers? I don't want my body to be "disrupted", I don't wish for my health to "fail fast." This is not a photosharing app you're building.

I find it profoundly bizarre and irresponsible that these people are recommending a total dietary replacement and they don't have single nutritionist or even anyone with a medical background on staff. Soylent team: you are MARKETERS, not nutritionists! Go disrupt something that either a) has fewer potential disastrous consequences or b) you actually know something about.

on the other hand USian diets in many quarters are so bad that this stuff can't be much worse. :) But seriously, even for the veneer of legitimacy, hire a nutritionist! The lack of one makes me think you couldn't find one who would touch the project with a 10 foot pole.

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#88

Post by betterunix » Wed, Aug 07, 2013, 2:20 AM UTC

drewblaisdell wrote: post #69

betterunix wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically cryptographers will define a security goal in rigorous terms, then prove that their system meets that goal (at least for "cryptomania" type applications like digital cash). There are good reasons for doing this: 1. It makes proofs of security possible, which make us a lot more confident about cryptosystems. 2. It allows us to be clear about what it means to "break" a system. If we are not clear about this,…

> Sure. Let's start with a thought experiment: I have something very rare, which has no practical uses but which is easy to give to others. Will you give me your car for a big pile of it? How does the success/value of gold not completely destroy this line of reasoning? I'm not saying it is destined for success or failure, just that this is not a coherent argument against Bitcoin.

Go buy your lunch with a lump of gold if you need to be reminded that gold is not used as a currency outside of a few highly niche markets.

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#89

Post by jafaku » Wed, Aug 07, 2013, 2:20 AM UTC

betterunix wrote: post #68

jafaku wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. What do you mean? 2. Countries can be attacked too. I don't know what your point is here. If bitcoin survives its infancy, it could become more resilient than any other currency. 3. Could you explain it in practical terms? Because as long as it works, why should I care about what theorists say? Bitcoin's creator said himself that it was an experiment, and rightly so, we have never seen anything like Bitcoin taking…

Typically cryptographers will define a security goal in rigorous terms, then prove that their system meets that goal (at least for "cryptomania" type applications like digital cash). There are good reasons for doing this: 1. It makes proofs of security possible, which make us a lot more confident about cryptosystems. 2. It allows us to be clear about what it means to "break" a system. If we are not clear about this,…

> There are a lot of organizations with the resources needed to perform the "51% attack" on Bitcoin and no compelling reason to think that a faster attack is not possible.

I'm aware of that. There are also lots of organizations with the power to kill you, yet you won't lose your sleep, because they have nothing to gain from that, so you are pretty sure that it won't happen. It could be argued that the central banks have a lot to lose to Bitcoin, so they should attack it. But after giving it a bit of thought, I remembered that most people just try to pass the current problems to the next guy (think of presidents, bankers, etc), so why would they bother? Right now, Bitcoin is not big enough to be a threat to anyone. It will keep growing as a threat, but everyone will pass the problem to the next guy, until Bitcoin becomes too big to be stopped. If there is a future that makes sense, this is it. Bitcoin takes over because lazy politicians don't do what they have to (in this crazy world, where their function seem to be to ruin everything), and ironically, that will be the best for everyone.

> For the same reason you should care about what cryptography theorists, physicists, and doctors have to say.

I was thinking about economists mostly (which in many cases will have vested interests), but still, if it works it works. Many theorists have spoken against the phone, the internet, the email, the aeroplanes, etc, and see what happened. I'm no cryptographer, but Bitcoin doesn't seem like something that would require one to begin with since all its crypto was done at the user level, it's pretty simple. Satoshi didn't try to create his own hashing algorithm or anything like that.

> You are calling the informed opinions of dozens of experts in cryptography and economics "raging" because they are saying that the system you love and support is based on dubious technical and economic ideas. It sounds more like you started out believing that Bitcoin is the future and are not willing to accept any argument that concludes anything else.

There are quite informed people on the other side too. So what do we do about them? Ignore them? I said raging, because Bitcoin has this crazy effect on a lot of people. They will hate Bitcoin for no reason, spread outright lies, and try to convince everyone that it is a scam. Why? We still don't know what causes it, so we just call it fear of the unknown.

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#90

Post by zorpner » Wed, Aug 07, 2013, 2:28 AM UTC

cjp wrote: post #80

zorpner wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> heavy dose of fiber to balance out the glycemic index. Result: sugar rush followed by a nasty crash Good God, man, that is not at all what fiber does, and has nothing to do with the role of fiber in diet. Please stop consuming this before you hurt yourself, and please stop talking about it before you hurt others.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11858448 Wouldn't want to actually stfw or anything.

Oh, you're one of the people that believe that a perceived "sugar rush" has something to do with diabetic glycemic excursions? They're entirely different phenomena. Dismissed. But thanks for the irrelevant link!