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Snowden Wikipedia page edited to label him a "traitor" from Senate computer

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Re: Snowden Wikipedia page edited to label him a "traitor" from Senate computer

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that "anyone can edit." Although it might fly against the prevailing opinion online, I would not classify a one-word edit like this as a defacement. Whether Snowden is a dissident, traitor, or some other word (patriot?) is really a matter of opinion.

In the US we have a specific definition for treason which makes it pretty clear that Snowden is not a traitor.

Well, pretty clear that they'll never prove Snowden is a traitor in court, at least. ;)

Re: Snowden Wikipedia page edited to label him a "traitor" from Senate computer

#42
post #22

Probably not a shocker, or news worthy, but amusing to get busted like this. Snowden has been publicly called a traitor by at least two senators, " I think Snowden is a traitor -- Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid [1], and Kerry characterized former NSA contractor as a " traitor to his country. " -- US Secretary of State John Kerry [2], and there are lots of hits in Google News [3], so there are probably others. [1]…

> "traitor to his country." Because for them country=government. He is a traitor to a corrupt and power hungry government. So that description is accurate.

> Because for them country=government.

Drawing a distinction between the government and a non-government is pretty much the antithesis of democracy.

Re: Snowden Wikipedia page edited to label him a "traitor" from Senate computer

#43
post #24

There is no evidence that this is a Senator or anyone in a position of power. It is more likely that it is just a bored intern.

Honestly, this is the most likely answer. I doubt it would be a Senator.

If only because that would actually require the Senator to be able to actually understand the technology to a degree necessary to make a Wikipedia edit.

Re: Snowden Wikipedia page edited to label him a "traitor" from Senate computer

#44
Laughs at the US senate aside, it really sucks that Wikipedia hasn't implemented a simple ip anonymizing system yet. They could simply hash the ip of anonymous contributions so then you could still see the persons edit history but not run a whois query and figure out what that persons likely employer is.

A system like that has been proposed may times but always shot down with "if people are concerned with privacy they can always log in!" Which doesn't help at all because people are clueless about technology and doesn't know how much some Wikipedia edits and and ip address exposes about them.

Re: Snowden Wikipedia page edited to label him a "traitor" from Senate computer

#45
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "traitor to his country." Because for them country=government. He is a traitor to a corrupt and power hungry government. So that description is accurate.

> Because for them country=government. Drawing a distinction between the government and a non-government is pretty much the antithesis of democracy.

Yet here we are.

Re: Snowden Wikipedia page edited to label him a "traitor" from Senate computer

#46
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "traitor to his country." Because for them country=government. He is a traitor to a corrupt and power hungry government. So that description is accurate.

> Because for them country=government. Drawing a distinction between the government and a non-government is pretty much the antithesis of democracy.

If 'democracy' entails equating the political state with civil society, than 'democracy' is just a euphemism for 'totalitarianism'.

In a free society, 'democracy' refers exactly to distinguishing the state from the rest of society, so as to ensure that the former remains subordinate and accountable to the latter.

Re: Snowden Wikipedia page edited to label him a "traitor" from Senate computer

#47
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because for them country=government. Drawing a distinction between the government and a non-government is pretty much the antithesis of democracy.

If 'democracy' entails equating the political state with civil society, than 'democracy' is just a euphemism for 'totalitarianism'. In a free society, 'democracy' refers exactly to distinguishing the state from the rest of society, so as to ensure that the former remains subordinate and accountable to the latter.

The difference between totalitarianism and democracy is simply one of pluralism. An idealized totalitarian country has only one ideology; an idealized democracy has dozens to millions, depending on how you count, each in some way a contradiction of the others.

There does exist the notion of a totalitarian democracy [1], which I do not consider democratic precisely because it, by definition, cannot respect pluralism. (Pluralism is more than just dissent, but multiple orthogonal viewpoints.) This is arguably the type of political system that America is approaching.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarian_democracy

Re: Snowden Wikipedia page edited to label him a "traitor" from Senate computer

#48
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 'democracy' entails equating the political state with civil society, than 'democracy' is just a euphemism for 'totalitarianism'. In a free society, 'democracy' refers exactly to distinguishing the state from the rest of society, so as to ensure that the former remains subordinate and accountable to the latter.

The difference between totalitarianism and democracy is simply one of pluralism. An idealized totalitarian country has only one ideology; an idealized democracy has dozens to millions, depending on how you count, each in some way a contradiction of the others. There does exist the notion of a totalitarian democracy [1], which I do not consider democratic precisely because it, by definition, cannot respect pluralism.…

Substantive pluralism requires a distinction between the state and civil society; if all of society is equated to the state, and thus subject to the power of the state, then, by definition, there's a single "ideology" governing everything, that being the aggregation of state policy which applies universally. Whether the intentions of that policy were devised by one faction as a single, unified policy, or whether the policy was a product of accretion, the end result is the same, and that result is not pluralistic democracy.

Real pluralism is about de jure authority and de facto power being distributed among many institutions in society, not concentrated entirely in a single one.

Re: Snowden Wikipedia page edited to label him a "traitor" from Senate computer

#49
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between totalitarianism and democracy is simply one of pluralism. An idealized totalitarian country has only one ideology; an idealized democracy has dozens to millions, depending on how you count, each in some way a contradiction of the others. There does exist the notion of a totalitarian democracy [1], which I do not consider democratic precisely because it, by definition, cannot respect pluralism.…

Substantive pluralism requires a distinction between the state and civil society; if all of society is equated to the state, and thus subject to the power of the state, then, by definition, there's a single "ideology" governing everything, that being the aggregation of state policy which applies universally. Whether the intentions of that policy were devised by one faction as a single, unified policy, or whether the…

Except that time happens and that single state policy is modified on a continual basis. These modifications are performed by coalitions of different parties with differing ideologies, leading to a constantly shifting "single ideology". Sometimes these parties and coalitions are formed as a direct response to consequences of the current policy.

Which is the point of a democracy. A democracy's central thesis is that any given policy is probably not-quite-right and that it always merits reconsideration in the near future.

> Real pluralism is about de jure authority and de facto power being distributed among many institutions in society, not concentrated entirely in a single one.

How is this not the case in a democracy? The assertion that country=government does not require that the number of institutions in the country/government be merely one. Asserting a distinction does not merely bump the number of institutions from one to two, which would be insufficiently pluralistic anyways. Pluralism comes from the liberal doctrine of individualism; it's a natural consequence of asserting the individual worthiness and dignity, which demands that the individual's concerns be considered in some fashion.

Making a false distinction between state and society is useful only for disempowering citizens who see themselves as part of one but not the other, negating their willingness to provide a voice to the cacophony of pluralism. Our disdain for politics is precisely what grants politicians so much power: because someone has to do their job and they're willing. If only the supply were higher so that the power granted by their office could be diluted by sheer interchangeability.

Why do we rely so heavily on the fourth estate to speak on our behalf? To be the voice of society holding accountable the state? Why are we ourselves not speaking? Yes, there are things stopping us, and we need to know what and why and how to remove those impediments. Instead of having our voices subsumed into mass outcries, we need to have our voices individually acknowledged. Pluralism isn't about having political speechwriters making dialogue with investigative reporters and mogul-owned pundits. It's about all of us talking.

Re: Snowden Wikipedia page edited to label him a "traitor" from Senate computer

#50
post #11

There is no evidence that this is a Senator or anyone in a position of power. It is more likely that it is just a bored intern.

No one's claiming that it is a Senator, but then again, is this what my tax dollars are funding?

If it makes you feel any better, many (most?) Senate interns are unpaid.
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