Live data from Hacker News

Simulating 1 second of real brain activity takes 40 minutes and 83K processors

gigaom.com

41–50 of 124 posts

Re: Simulating 1 second of real brain activity takes 40 minutes and 83K processors

#41
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you plan on simulating all the variety of states, reactions and solutions involving plain old water without worrying about hydrogen and oxygen atoms?

Again, i would assert that a cell is 70% water. some tiny fraction of water that's actually used in a reaction would just be special cased, and modeled independently. My understanding of "solution" is stuff floating in water. If there's some value in breaking out each atom, i'm all for it, but i kind of suspect the spherical cow is good enough in that case. Even if i'm wrong there, each atom would introduce at least…

"My understanding of "solution" is stuff floating in water."

In that case, don't even bother with trying to work out what it would take to mathematically model biochemistry yet. Go study some basic physics and chemistry for a few years instead.

Re: Simulating 1 second of real brain activity takes 40 minutes and 83K processors

#42
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't a big leap to imagine a debate between aliens about whether the hairless apes on the third rock from Sol should be considered "sentient", or merely clever animals. I'd rather err far on the side of assuming sentience and personhood if there is a shadow of a doubt, simulated or otherwise.

Why would they debate? It's very easy to test for [sentience or fake sentience programmed by a sentient]. Unless the aliens think we're robots they can do a mirror test or something. But such a test does not work in a possibly-tainted environment. A neural net that seems to communicate might just have a hidden encoding of ELIZA. You can err on the side of assuming sentience if you want, but don't think it's out of se…

> It's [sentience is] very easy to test for.

Isn't that only true if you assume that our definition of sentience is universal or that there is no higher development of consciousness? It seems to me that it doesn't even require a very skilled science fiction/fantasy writer to develop such a concept or ability.

Re: Simulating 1 second of real brain activity takes 40 minutes and 83K processors

#44
These attempts at brain simulation perplex me to no end.

Simulating a lump of tissue is definitely useful, it's when they start talking about simulating a complete brain that I get lost.

A brain doesn't happen overnight. It is the result of a long developmental process encompassing embryology, learning and experience acquisition.

How do they plan to wire the whole thing?

Micro- and macroscopic connections are well understood, it is the so-called meso-scale (in between) that is troublesome.

There will never be a non-destructive way to do extract the information of a live brain, and I'm not sure there will ever be a way to extract it at all. The current methods[0] allow to extract either the wiring or the genes expression.

[0] http://www.brain-map.org/

Re: Simulating 1 second of real brain activity takes 40 minutes and 83K processors

#45
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, i would assert that a cell is 70% water. some tiny fraction of water that's actually used in a reaction would just be special cased, and modeled independently. My understanding of "solution" is stuff floating in water. If there's some value in breaking out each atom, i'm all for it, but i kind of suspect the spherical cow is good enough in that case. Even if i'm wrong there, each atom would introduce at least…

"My understanding of "solution" is stuff floating in water." In that case, don't even bother with trying to work out what it would take to mathematically model biochemistry yet. Go study some basic physics and chemistry for a few years instead.

Ah yes, i called out water specifically and therefore i am an idiot. Mia Culpa. Best of luck with your simulation, i'm sure that individual atom model will work out great.

Re: Simulating 1 second of real brain activity takes 40 minutes and 83K processors

#47
post #6
post #3

At what point does this become unethical (if ever)? Before you answer, please consider how certain you are that you are not a simulation. Edit: I don't know the answer, and there probably is a large gray area. But I do know this starts to make me uncomfortable the more accurate it gets. Time to go reread Egan's Axiomatic again, I guess.

Even if you are a simulation, would you prefer not to exist? What, really, is the difference between reality and a perfectly-executed simulation? It's hard to condemn one without condemning the other.

Exactly.

If we are in a simulation, then ipso facto, we have no idea what 'reality' outside our simulation is actually like. We can only surmise that it probably resembles our simulation, in as much as the creators probably used their own reality as a template.

Even more reason why there is no functional difference, subjectively speaking, whether we're living in a simulation or in actual reality.

Only when given the choice to enter or leave a simulation does the distinction becomes meaningful.

Re: Simulating 1 second of real brain activity takes 40 minutes and 83K processors

#48
post #44

These attempts at brain simulation perplex me to no end. Simulating a lump of tissue is definitely useful, it's when they start talking about simulating a complete brain that I get lost. A brain doesn't happen overnight. It is the result of a long developmental process encompassing embryology, learning and experience acquisition. How do they plan to wire the whole thing? Micro- and macroscopic connections are well un…

They use it to understand brain. So they wire it like the brain is wired.

If they simulate cortex, they wire arrange it into cortical columns (size of each column is between 50,000 and 100,000 neurons and there is over two million of them). Those columns have many different layers and neuron types. Understanding how cortical columns and minicolumns work is very important.

Re: Simulating 1 second of real brain activity takes 40 minutes and 83K processors

#49
The title statement is almost meaningless. It would be better just to say "simulating reality takes a LONG time".

My research is in molecular dynamics. I simulate systems up to 1 billion atoms on Kraken & Titan. HUGE approximations are made in simulating these systems, but depending on what exactly it is you're studying, these simulations still provide useful results. That is the key to all these studies: how well does your approximation reproduce whatever it is that you're attempting to model? In some cases, very well. For instance, I'm not going to get exact energy levels of a large system, but the system will qualitatively evolve in the same fashion that the experimental system does (which then guides the experimental counterpart to the research). I don't know the details of this brain simulation, but there is certainly some aspect of it that is not being reproduced anywhere close to real-life, and hopefully this isn't what they're interested in (and I'm sure they know that, but I don't think the article author does).

The very best simulations of reality that we can perform handle at most just a few H/He/C atoms. And an issue called the fermion-sign problem means that the computational power necessary to simulate larger systems scales exponentially with the number of particles. Unfortunately what that means is -- short of developing quantum computers (which are polynomial order for the sign problem) -- we aren't ever going to simulate more than a few atoms with near-perfect accuracy, and certainly nothing like a human brain.

EDIT: Didn't mean for my comment to sound so negative. Obviously, the researchers know exactly what they're doing. I was just trying to dispel the impression that we're close to simulating the human brain.

Re: Simulating 1 second of real brain activity takes 40 minutes and 83K processors

#50
I would imagine that the analogue nature of the brain is going to always entail a lot of approximation on simulation. I am not sure you could even accurately simulate even 1 neuron.

Disclaimer: this is completely out of my field - just a layman speculating.

Post reply on HN