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Open letter to Sal Khan

christopherdanielson.wordpress.com

101–110 of 146 posts

Re: Open letter to Sal Khan

#101
post #7

It is hard to get the details right with math. First there is the basic factual level (not saying anything wrong), then there is a language level (will an 6th grader understand this? an 8th grader? a 10th grader?). Finally, and this is the hardest part, presenting the material in the most pedagogical way. Posting an open letter is a bit of a sensationalist move, but this way it will be sure to gather enough attention…

> the most pedagogical way

One issue with education research is that all too often, for each set of articles in reputable journals arguing with copious evidence that students learn best when taught left to right there is another set for right to left. It can be very frustrating to try to teach in the most pedagogical way.

Re: Open letter to Sal Khan

#102
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another Ben from Khan Academy here! I'd like to also emphasize how much we lean on our community. Khan Academy's goal is not to be perfect, but to iterate towards perfection — it'd be impossible to do that across such a broad array of content without building up a strong community. Beneath our videos the community creates Q&A to help address (we hope) misconceptions and follow-ups about each topic (fun example: https…

Thanks for the clarification! I think you guys are doing awesome, world-changing work. I, too, took issue with the letter. It seemed like the author was trying to embarrass Khan Academy, using one issue to imply that you're irresponsible and lazy. I think that his approach is in itself irresponsible and lazy - it would have made more sense for the author to reach out privately to get a better understanding of how you…

I know nothing of how Khan Academy works and have no specific opinion on whether the author of this blog was right or wrong to call them out... But, as a general rule, I find it hard to fault people for turning to public shaming quickly as a way to get through to a tech/web company about some problem they have these days. It is, sadly, often the best path to results.

There are amazingly large swaths of the software/web/services industry where customer service and back channel communication to decision makers in the company essentially doesn't exist. Phone numbers don't exist, appropriate email addresses are hard to find and are likely to just robo-response you (and point you to a FAQ that doesn't cover your situation) if you do manage to find them, etc. Maybe there is some obscure mailing list the user could be heard on, except that mailing list is only known by experts on the software or service and good luck finding it if you aren't even aware it might exist. Or maybe there is some specific person they could tweet at, but not being part of that culture they have no idea who that would be.

I mostly blame Google for the sad state of this. Though they are hardly the only offenders, they were pioneers in this area and are certainly one of the largest who still practice it across most of their products and their continued practice of it legitimizes it in the minds of other web companies.

Again, I'm not saying any of this does or doesn't apply to Khan Academy. I'd guess based on the community nature of the product it is not nearly as bad as I've seen elsewhere, but I think the sorry state of customer service across the industry is directly responsible for these sorts of public shaming posts and the people making them aren't being irrational all things considered, the service/software companies as a group are bringing it on themselves.

Re: Open letter to Sal Khan

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am thrilled that KA exists. I have read Khan's book and recommended it to others. I don't see anything in this post about "discrediting" KA. I think the author is making a completely valid point and I hope that KA addresses it soon.

> What we see in these two girls’ thinking is precisely the problem you set out to solve with Khan Academy. But you aren’t solving the problem, Mr. Khan. You are perpetuating it. > Mr. Khan, you have a team of teacher advisors. If none of them can identify these gaps for you, you need to ask for help from the larger community (and then to reexamine your hiring practices). > Or you could educate yourself (as we requir…

Okay, fair enough. The author did permit himself to go beyond constructive criticism and resort to pot shots in a few places. I don't think they invalidate his point entirely -- and I don't see the problem with writing an open letter -- but I agree, the pot shots are unbecoming, and suggest that the author is feeling threatened by KA.

Edited to add: the first quote is blunt, but not, I think, out of line. I do think I detect a bit of condescension in the latter two.

Re: Open letter to Sal Khan

#104
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> found no way to dissuade the student that 0.35 was bigger than 0.4, no matter what we tried. Out of curiosity, assuming you tried a number line, do you remember why that didn't work?

I think if I could ever have understood the difficulty, I would've had a chance of working around it. The problem seemed to be that they could place things on the number line, see that this was to the right of that, say that 0.4 was to the right of 0.35, say that hence 0.4 was bigger than 0.35, and then go right back to doing what they had always done. My model of what was happening in the student's head is illustrat…

Unlearning is always much harder than learning.

I know that when I'm debugging a piece of code, and I get an idea in my head about how it works or should work, and that idea is shown to be wrong by clear and incontrovertible evidence, it can still take between a few hours and a few days for me to stop thinking it.

Re: Open letter to Sal Khan

#105
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a poor way to quantify the quality of an educational product. While quality can and sometimes does drive demand for a product it's frequently possible for demand to be driven instead by fads, trends, and hype. If you want to measure the quality of something there are far more reliable metrics to use than demand. With that said I like Kahn Academy. This is a single issue in a large body of educational material…

If we assume that students are rational actors making decisions between traditional teaching methods and KA...and we assume that KA, students, and teachers all have the same end goal of teaching the kids the material. It sure looks like, at an increasing rate, kids are choosing KA. After all they are held most directly accountable for their academic success or failure. Wouldn't demand then be a reasonable gauge of va…

Students cannot possibly evaluate which of the teaching methods are better because they do not yet know what they are supposed to be taught. This lack of knowledge is a fundamental problem of markets in education.

Students might say that method A "feels better" or "is more fun" than method B. However, it is entirely possible that method A is worse because, in the end, students will actually not have learned what they would learn with method B.

This is not to say that students' opinions are irrelevant. After all, when students don't enjoy what they're doing, they will often block out the lesson and not learn anything due to the lack of fun.

Still, it is pretty absurd to think that students could ever be objective in evaluating the teaching methods they are subjected to.

Re: Open letter to Sal Khan

#106

Dear Open letter writer, I am a parent of a 10 year old who likes Maths; my choices in fostering and encouraging this trait were to (A) enroll her in a really expense private school, (b) enroll ins Kumon (its a canadian after school private tutoring type of service) (c) private tutors -- which I can't afford. Please note that her teachers have shown no inclination to help advance her learning beyond the curriculum. S…

Open letter writer here. I am so glad to hear that your child finds Khan Academy videos stimulating and thought-provoking. I really do think that's wonderful and I am glad this resource exists for you and your child. I mean this in all sincerity. At the same time, the popular press rhetoric around Mr. Khan is about his revolutionary teaching. The medium (free availability of instructional videos) gets confused with t…

The name is spelled Gardner.

Re: Open letter to Sal Khan

#107
Khan academy has an issue tracker. It shows over 16,000 open issues out of a total of about 20,000 issues. Almost 15,000 have a status of "New."

Problems like this one should get tracked and resolved through this system, but the system could be stalled.

Re: Open letter to Sal Khan

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am thrilled that KA exists. I have read Khan's book and recommended it to others. I don't see anything in this post about "discrediting" KA. I think the author is making a completely valid point and I hope that KA addresses it soon.

> What we see in these two girls’ thinking is precisely the problem you set out to solve with Khan Academy. But you aren’t solving the problem, Mr. Khan. You are perpetuating it. > Mr. Khan, you have a team of teacher advisors. If none of them can identify these gaps for you, you need to ask for help from the larger community (and then to reexamine your hiring practices). > Or you could educate yourself (as we requir…

The problem is that without the snideness/personal attack, we wouldn't be discussing the article, and Sal Khan would never have seen it.

Nobody wants to read a boring article about a better way to teach decimals. Sad but true.

Re: Open letter to Sal Khan

#109

ColinWright (the submitter of the blog post submitted here) is a mathematician who is evidently quite interested in effective mathematics education. This is far from the first Sunday in the United States when I have logged on to Hacker News to see a lively discussion of mathematics education sparked by one of Colin's posts. I teach decimal arithmetic to third-, fourth-, and fifth-grade age pupils through my local non…

Hi. OP here.

On the Rational Number Project matter, you'll notice that I didn't recommend the entire body of work, but rather one article relevant to the matter at hand. It's worth a read—totally practical and applicable, and it reinforces Mr. Khan's intuitive sense that decomposing decimal numbers is important.

I do look forward to future iterations of the decimals stuff. The teaching and learning of fractions and decimals is tremendously complicated stuff. Problems in this area are arguably at the root of many, many people's struggles in mathematics, which is why I think getting it right matters so very much.

Re: Open letter to Sal Khan

#110
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make great points, and much of what you say is absolutely true. But I have dealt with pupils who have severely broken concepts of decimal place, and whose potential for understanding basic arithmetic has been damaged beyond repair.[0] I believe the KA is doing brilliant things, and opening up knowledge for all is fantastic. I would just like to be convinced that modern research about pedagogy is being integrated…

> found no way to dissuade the student that 0.35 was bigger than 0.4, no matter what we tried. Out of curiosity, assuming you tried a number line, do you remember why that didn't work?

A number line doesn't help some students decompose numbers. The key insight in this example is noticing that 0.35 is "3 tenths and 5 hundredths", in addition to being "35 hundredths". The former is a decomposition. Number line approaches more commonly rely on students being able to think of 0.4 as 0.40, which some interpret as an arbitrary rule, rather than as related to facts about equivalent fractions.

The particular approach offered by the Rational Number Project in the article I linked to in the original post focuses kids on that decomposition from the very beginning using area models and colors to highlight multiple ways of seeing (e.g.) 0.35

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