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The White Hat's Dilemma

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Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#81

Post by OrlandoSuave »

amirmc wrote: post #76
mr_spothawk wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was very very clear about what I hoped to accomplish: a repentance from the actor in this case, and to highlight their stupidity to others. And I wish more people would stand up and say it to their friends and relatives when those people graduate college and start talking about working for the Military Industrial Complex, "Cyber" anything, or various other companies who build bombs, agents of war, or devices used t…

No, you were not at all clear about what you wanted to achieve. From my reading, you simply berated someone on the internet for revealing something about themselves. I've never found that to be a productive way of convincing anyone of anything. You now say that the aim was to get repentance, when he's already stated he regrets it. At no point do you give advice about what he could/should do now to 'make up for his si…

"At no point do you give advice about what he could/should do now to 'make up for his sins'"

What do you want him to do to make up for it? Travel to China and tell the government to stop spying on their people using software he helped program?

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#82

Post by jfarmer »

tptacek wrote: post #80
clicks wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading what you just wrote reminded me of the famous Edmund Burke quote: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". If it had not been for the acquiescence of engineers who took part in the creation of PRISM, XKeyscore, etc. we... well, we would not have PRISM, XKeyscore, etc. Increasingly there is no such thing as an "amoral" position when it comes to a lot of these things -- you're…

Did you read every other sentence of what I wrote? None of this has anything to do with my comment.

You know how it works, Thomas! People translate comments into the version that best suits their lives. :P

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#83

Post by clicks »

tptacek wrote: post #80
clicks wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading what you just wrote reminded me of the famous Edmund Burke quote: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". If it had not been for the acquiescence of engineers who took part in the creation of PRISM, XKeyscore, etc. we... well, we would not have PRISM, XKeyscore, etc. Increasingly there is no such thing as an "amoral" position when it comes to a lot of these things -- you're…

Did you read every other sentence of what I wrote? None of this has anything to do with my comment.

One, I don't think it's the HN law that all threads should follow in some precise linearity: there's such a thing as free-form debate. Two, my comment did have something to do with your comment. Three, you very often reply like this -- "did you read what I said?" -- not that it matters much to me personally, but can you please start making an effort of at least trying to communicate such things in a little more civilized manner? The tone of such comments is often toxic and inflammatory.

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#84

Post by ansdkfus13 »

mr_spothawk wrote: post #35
throwaway3902 wrote: post #8

I used to work for Blizzard. The Chinese government requested that we modify the WoW client so that they could intercept all chat. As far as I know, no-one said anything, including me - and Blizzard, of course, was more than happy to comply, given the size of the market and the risk of being forbidden to do business there. There were plenty of other MMOGs happy to play ball and eat that cake. I didn't say anything. I…

Fuck it, I'll go ahead and say it: First, thanks for coming clean. You're a human being who's made a really bad decision. You should feel terrible for this. "They" are not merely your possible friends, or your relative's relatives, or your neighbors' cousins... "They" are other human beings who might someday decide to stand up for their human rights. "They" are millions of people you sold out for easy "dinner" & "ren…

Don't we all make terrible choices both explicitly as well as implicitly? When faced with a choice between the moral rectitude and the livelihood of your family, it's very difficult to choose the former. At least this guy has courage to come clean and admit his wrongdoing.

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#85

Post by doki_pen »

ansdkfus13 wrote: post #84
mr_spothawk wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck it, I'll go ahead and say it: First, thanks for coming clean. You're a human being who's made a really bad decision. You should feel terrible for this. "They" are not merely your possible friends, or your relative's relatives, or your neighbors' cousins... "They" are other human beings who might someday decide to stand up for their human rights. "They" are millions of people you sold out for easy "dinner" & "ren…

Don't we all make terrible choices both explicitly as well as implicitly? When faced with a choice between the moral rectitude and the livelihood of your family, it's very difficult to choose the former. At least this guy has courage to come clean and admit his wrongdoing.

I'm calling bullshit. Maybe this gentlemen would have taken some job that paid less(i doubt it), but it's hard to believe that a programmer, of all people, would be blackballed industry wide for refusing to implement some spying mechanism. Give me a break. If anyone is in a position to rebel against this type of system it's those of us in software. We have a strong community of anti-establishment minded people, we have a very strong job market and we make much more than a living wage.

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#86

Post by peterkelly »

throwaway3902 wrote: post #8

I used to work for Blizzard. The Chinese government requested that we modify the WoW client so that they could intercept all chat. As far as I know, no-one said anything, including me - and Blizzard, of course, was more than happy to comply, given the size of the market and the risk of being forbidden to do business there. There were plenty of other MMOGs happy to play ball and eat that cake. I didn't say anything. I…

Just wanted to say I really admire you for having the courage to come out and say this publicly (even though it was anonymously).

The world needs more people like you. We all do things we regret later in life. I have great respect for the fact that you've reflected on your involvement in this, come to regret it, and have now chosen to speak out about it.

I think this particular case actually deserves a HN story in itself.

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#87

Post by mr_spothawk »

ansdkfus13 wrote: post #84
mr_spothawk wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck it, I'll go ahead and say it: First, thanks for coming clean. You're a human being who's made a really bad decision. You should feel terrible for this. "They" are not merely your possible friends, or your relative's relatives, or your neighbors' cousins... "They" are other human beings who might someday decide to stand up for their human rights. "They" are millions of people you sold out for easy "dinner" & "ren…

Don't we all make terrible choices both explicitly as well as implicitly? When faced with a choice between the moral rectitude and the livelihood of your family, it's very difficult to choose the former. At least this guy has courage to come clean and admit his wrongdoing.

>courage to come clean and admit his wrongdoing.

... years later, with a throwaway account. >First, thanks for coming clean. You're a human being who's made a really bad decision.

See my first line?

>When faced with a choice between the moral rectitude and the livelihood of your family, it's very difficult to choose the former.

"But I was a coward and I didn't want to lose my job, didn't want to fight a legal battle, and, like I said, it was just China spying on it's people, which everyone knew they do anyway."

Look, you can be as upset as you want with me for my attitude with this person, but don't make up stories about how hard his life is to justify this type of spineless behavior by others.

We should all work harder to avoid making the decisions that result in harm to others. I encourage those around me to learn from the mistakes of others and not make choices that cause harm.

(edits for clarity in quotations)

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#89

Post by mr_spothawk »

jwatte wrote: post #78
mr_spothawk wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck it, I'll go ahead and say it: First, thanks for coming clean. You're a human being who's made a really bad decision. You should feel terrible for this. "They" are not merely your possible friends, or your relative's relatives, or your neighbors' cousins... "They" are other human beings who might someday decide to stand up for their human rights. "They" are millions of people you sold out for easy "dinner" & "ren…

Selling out for "so little"? I bet he sold out for over hundred thousand dollars, or more (depending on how long he wirked tgere.) The need to know where food and rent are coming from is strong in humans, and the system takes full advantage of it. If you want to go against that, it will take a lot more than some ultimately futile work stoppage and sacrificing your future career. The system is what it is, the golden r…

>The system is what it is, the golden rule applies, and to change the system, it would take prolonged civil war. I'd that what you want?

I want people to wake up and realize that this is absolutely farcical. We still live in a democracy, and we still have the power to stop this behavior by 'the system'. It took generations of stupidity to get here and it will take generations to get us out, but, cynical as I am, I don't think all is lost.

It takes waking up and walking out of jobs that do this sort of work. It takes jury nullification [1]. It takes thoughtful decisions by graduating seniors looking for work. It takes political education and civil protest and HARD WORK, but it doesn't require violence between the states.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#90

Post by cheapsteak »

throwaway3902 wrote: post #8

I used to work for Blizzard. The Chinese government requested that we modify the WoW client so that they could intercept all chat. As far as I know, no-one said anything, including me - and Blizzard, of course, was more than happy to comply, given the size of the market and the risk of being forbidden to do business there. There were plenty of other MMOGs happy to play ball and eat that cake. I didn't say anything. I…

If it makes you feel any better, you would not have made a difference.

Having lived there for nearly a decade, including middle and high school, I can tell you that people here just don't care anymore, and news papers and websites would know better than to publish a story like that anyway; you would have self-immolated for nothing.

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