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Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

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Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#101

Post by wikiburner »

anthonyb wrote: post #14

I just took a look at the new page, and it doesn't look any different to normal. The users of those posts aren't necessarily hellbanned - the posts are though. If enough people flag a new story I think it'll automatically be marked dead. Usually it's just for spammy crap, or stories that aren't very interesting.

We're actually discussing the flagging situation here, in a thread that was flagged:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6155513

I don't think many stories get flagged just on the new page. It's usually domains that are flagged, like buzzfeed.com, huffingtonpost.com, or gawker.com. It sounds like maybe there was a bug in the server today.

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#102

Post by ColinWright »

petsos wrote: post #34
ColinWright wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For how long have you run a popular discussion web site, and what measures do you take to reduce the increased snarkiness in extended exchanges? I'd love to hear how you solve the problem.

How long is the limit after which you are allowed to express a criticism?

I don't understand your question - it feels like you've misunderstood something. In case that's true, let me explain a little further.

Some time ago PG observed that deep comment threads tended to consist mostly of people getting snarky with each other. He speculated that the snarkiness might be reduced by preventing people from replying to each other immediately, without any cooling off period. To that end, and since it seemed to occur primarily on deeper threads, he instigated an exponential back-off on comments. As a thread gets deeper, so the delay increases before the reply box appears.

I don't have hard figures to hand, but I feel like the snarkiness in deeper threads has indeed been reduced, and I don't feel that the quality of conversation has diminished. One could worry that good comments aren't made because the commenter has to wait and doesn't bother, but I've seen no evidence of that.

If that hasn't answered your question then perhaps you could rephrase it and try again.

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#103

Post by ColinWright »

mscarborough wrote: post #70
ColinWright wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For how long have you run a popular discussion web site, and what measures do you take to reduce the increased snarkiness in extended exchanges? I'd love to hear how you solve the problem.

> what measures do you take to reduce the increased snarkiness > I'd love to hear how you solve the problem. You've exemplified the problem perfectly. Next time, don't comment.

Perhaps my comment was a little snarky, but perhaps you missed the point. perhaps I was a little too subtle, or perhaps my phrasing was poor and ill-judged.

Regardless of those considerations, my question is genuine. I see a lot or criticisms here of the technical measures taken to prevent or ameliorate particular issues, expressed by people who have idealistic opinions and points of view, but with zero experience of actually dealing with the problems. That is starting to annoy me more and more, and perhaps that irritation seeped into my reply.

But the point remains. The reply back-off was implemented to help reduce the snarkiness in long threads. My feeling (with no hard evidence) is that it has worked tolerably well. My question is genuine - if this annoys kmfrk, then how has kmfrk dealt with it in the past? If kmfrk has neither experienced it, nor implemented a solution, then I feel the criticism is misplaced.

In conclusion, probably next time I won't comment.

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#104

Post by eshvk »

alan_cx wrote: post #11
jlgaddis wrote: post #7

I submitted a link a few days ago about a possible IE 0-day in the wild and it immediately became "[dead]". It's the first submission I've ever made and I haven't, AFAIK, broken any HN rules since I finally created my account (after years of lurking). On a related note, you will be hellbanned if you create an HN account over Tor (even if you "don't do anything wrong"). Considering the recent NSA revelations, I think…

Hell banning for using Tor seems like a terrible contradiction to me. Especially for HN, in the land of the free.

> Especially for HN, in the land of the free.

Whatever gave you that idea? This is a forum owned by a private individual. The individual's interests in computer science, painting, startups and leadership probably influenced how the forum started. Sure, there are some people with libertarian tendencies here. It doesn't necessarily mean that everyone top down automatically thinks Tor is a holy cow. In fact, there were some reasoned arguments from forum administrators (at another forum but posted here), the other day, about why they were banning posting from Tor. (Spammers abusing Tor).

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#105

Post by Phlarp »

kefka wrote: post #97
consz wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I posted here for a year after getting hellbanned before realizing. It happens.

On another account, I checked regularly for possible hellban status. Lo and behold, I caught it about 3 days in. Of course, I didn't even use HN for the first of those 2 days. This day, I spend more of my time on subreddits that share HN's enthusiasm and knowledge without the subterfuge of hellbans.

Could you elaborate on which subs these are?

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#106

Post by mkr-hn »

w1ntermute wrote: post #91
bane wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't feel bad, almost half my posts get killed immediately because somebody doesn't think news about Android, and the sites that report positive things about the OS, should be on HN, but I can submit Daring Fireball and Apple Insider news all day.

Yeah, it's always pissed me off how much speculation about Apple products manages to make it to the front page, when similar articles about Android devices would never have a chance.

I've been fairly critical of Apple on HN and seem to avoid the dreaded hellban. Plenty of upvotes. Also critical of HN and avoid hellbans. Plenty of upvotes. It's possible the criticism is a secondary attribute to the thing that leads to bans/downvotes/obscurity.

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#107

Post by eshvk »

alan_cx wrote: post #23
northwest wrote: post #2

As a general request, I would welcome more transparency (about how things are handled and what we can and cannot expect from HN). EDIT: I also believe that a lack of it will ultimately lead to HN being replaced by something else.

The whole business of banning from sites in general bothers me. More so with huge sites like FB and Twitter. These sites like to promote themselves as communities, and to be banned from a community with no explanation, due process or right to appeal is awful. It can literally alter, even ruin lives. This, AFAIK, doesn't happen in the "real" world". I don't see why virtual communities get some sort of impunity. Person…

> These sites like to promote themselves as communities, and to be banned from a community with no explanation, due process or right to appeal is awful. It can literally alter, even ruin lives. This, AFAIK, doesn't happen in the "real" world". I don't see why virtual communities get some sort of impunity.

Sure it happens in the real world. A real world community like an HOA. It is a private property. A private property can really make any sort of rules (apart from a few choice rules that don't flag banning by the super community: the government) and roll with it.

I think an independent open source community would do better. You sign up for it, make whatever damn fool rule you want for your own tribe. Roll with it.

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#108

Post by anon1385 »

bane wrote: post #59
jlgaddis wrote: post #7

I submitted a link a few days ago about a possible IE 0-day in the wild and it immediately became "[dead]". It's the first submission I've ever made and I haven't, AFAIK, broken any HN rules since I finally created my account (after years of lurking). On a related note, you will be hellbanned if you create an HN account over Tor (even if you "don't do anything wrong"). Considering the recent NSA revelations, I think…

Don't feel bad, almost half my posts get killed immediately because somebody doesn't think news about Android, and the sites that report positive things about the OS, should be on HN, but I can submit Daring Fireball and Apple Insider news all day.

All Apple Insider submissions get automatically killed. Your idea that there is a big pro-apple conspiracy would be more believable if you had actual evidence.

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#109

Post by jfriedly »

jfriedly wrote: post #27

An example: First alpha release of Python 3.4 is out (python.org) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6155423 It probably linked to [1], but all we can tell is that it was something at python.org. The post was by plessthanpt05, an HN user for about two years with 838 karma. All of his/her posts from the past year or so are dead (about 60 of them). They don't appear to be a bot. Python 3.4.0a1 isn't something that wo…

I can't seem to edit this now, but someone else reposted the link to Python 3.4.0a1:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6155530

Their submission currently has 34 upvotes.

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#110

Post by bluehex »

darxius wrote: post #93
bluehex wrote: post #3

The only pattern I've noticed is that many of the hellbanned users only ever link to only a single domain -- probably their own.

This is also something I never understood. Who cares if I submit tons of (non-duplicate) links from my own domain. If the community doesn't like them, they won't get upvoted and will disappear. Same goes for the opposite.

I totally agree . I've found some things I would have liked to upvote in such banned users submissions a quite a few times.
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