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Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

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Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#51

Post by larrys »

ColinWright wrote: post #28
kmfrk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a feature that slows down the site for a user under certain conditions. It's surreptitious crap like this that makes HN such a pain to use for a lot of us.

For how long have you run a popular discussion web site, and what measures do you take to reduce the increased snarkiness in extended exchanges? I'd love to hear how you solve the problem.

"I'd love to hear how you solve the problem."

While this is fair question for sure not being able to solve a problem (right away) and identifying a problem are two completely different things.

Especially when asked to solve a problem as if it's a question on a test. And the fact that a problem is hard to solve or someone doesn't have an immediate answer doesn't mean there isn't a problem to be solved. Nor does it matter if they have ever run a popular discussion web site either.

In the real world to "solve a problem" such as this would take thought, time and testing all of which a commenter is not going to be able to do a good job of in a "reply" to a question posed here.

Most likely no low hanging fruit of a reply available.

I was asked a few days ago "well what would you have done then if you were Snowden?". As if I'm supposed to be able to come up with or commit to a response that makes sense on the spot. I simply won't do that.

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#52

Post by [deleted] »

buro9 wrote: post #47
Kudos wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blocking Tor stops plenty of spam. Boards.ie blocked Tor and watched spam fall off a cliff.

As someone who runs some large boards, blocking Tor stops trolls. Does very little for spam. For spam, http://www.stopforumspam.com is pretty awesome. But most likely because the few people who have written scripts for vBulletin or phpBB attempt to hit all of the vBulletin and phpBB sites... so it works pretty well for that group. May have zero effect on something like HN where an entirely different approach may be u…

[deleted]

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#54

Post by jbri »

kmfrk wrote: post #35
ColinWright wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For how long have you run a popular discussion web site, and what measures do you take to reduce the increased snarkiness in extended exchanges? I'd love to hear how you solve the problem.

Have a set of clear rules (and not vague non-language like "don't write non-hacker, off-topic stuff") - AND ENFORCE IT, visibly. Unenforced rules aren't rules. Unclarified rules aren't rules. Whenever someone is penalized, point them to the specific rules they violated. And keep in mind that people make mistakes every now and then. Show largesse. This isn't a production line where flawed products are tossed out at th…

I disagree with the idea of having a strict code of rules. Coming up with rules and sticking to them to the letter doesn't do anything to encourage meaningful discussion.

All you end up are the trolls who do their best to toe the line while provoking other people to step over it, and the sort of people who think a conversation where everybody follows the rules yet no-one says anything of substance is preferable to a lively discussion. You end up driving away the people who just want to talk about things they enjoy or are interested in, and don't particularly care about adhering to your rigid social system.

People are people, not automatons, and the system of curating discussions should reflect that. If someone is acting in bad faith, waiting for them to violate the letter of a rule that's been written down before you do anything about it just allows that person to drive away more of your actual desired userbase.

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#57

Post by krapp »

kmfrk wrote: post #18
derefr wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd upvote you, but I'm pretty sure that's a banning.

The algorithms have no parameters for mercy.

They cannot be bargained with. They cannot be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, remorse or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are banned.

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#58

Post by belorn »

damienkatz wrote: post #8

Posting out of turn? That's a banning. Posting from the wrong browser window? That's a banning. Staring at my post? That's a banning. Post about banning? Oh, better believe that's a banning.

You forgot about The Forbidden Words. The automatic word filter that sentences comments and posts to death.

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#59

Post by bane »

jlgaddis wrote: post #7

I submitted a link a few days ago about a possible IE 0-day in the wild and it immediately became "[dead]". It's the first submission I've ever made and I haven't, AFAIK, broken any HN rules since I finally created my account (after years of lurking). On a related note, you will be hellbanned if you create an HN account over Tor (even if you "don't do anything wrong"). Considering the recent NSA revelations, I think…

Don't feel bad, almost half my posts get killed immediately because somebody doesn't think news about Android, and the sites that report positive things about the OS, should be on HN, but I can submit Daring Fireball and Apple Insider news all day.

Re: Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned?

#60

Post by kmfrk »

jbri wrote: post #54
kmfrk wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have a set of clear rules (and not vague non-language like "don't write non-hacker, off-topic stuff") - AND ENFORCE IT, visibly. Unenforced rules aren't rules. Unclarified rules aren't rules. Whenever someone is penalized, point them to the specific rules they violated. And keep in mind that people make mistakes every now and then. Show largesse. This isn't a production line where flawed products are tossed out at th…

I disagree with the idea of having a strict code of rules. Coming up with rules and sticking to them to the letter doesn't do anything to encourage meaningful discussion. All you end up are the trolls who do their best to toe the line while provoking other people to step over it, and the sort of people who think a conversation where everybody follows the rules yet no-one says anything of substance is preferable to a…

Vague wording in rules is like legislation; they just end up as excuses for doing bad things, instead of ensuring good behaviour. "Toeing the line", if you will.

We constantly see this in trying to figure out what kind of stories are supposed to be submitted to HN.

Does it really make sense for a person like Maciej Ceglowski to be permabanned from HN? https://twitter.com/pinboard/status/111332316458135553. I think it's a shame, partly because I think he's a smart guy with a fresh view on things, but also because I don't think the reasons for banning him are very compelling.

You can't have poorly-defined rules and opaque moderation at the same time. You'll see why, when you incur the wrath of one of pg's moderation scripts for no apparent reason.

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EDIT: As an aside, to give an idea of what a fucking pain being (inexplicably) hellbanned is, picture all your Hacker News bookmarks no longer working, because you've been banned from the entire site.

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