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Ask HN: India == bad devs?

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Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#31
If you've worked in a US Corporate IT shop, then it is very likely that this is the case. One way large corporations structure the work is deliverables based. That means the company is paying the vendor to deliver design docs, code, tests, etc. on a schedule and aren't necessarily paying per hour. The offshore companies hire a couple of Java enterprise developers with 6 months experience and don't pay them much. They assemble the basics of an application together and the work is billed out as $X,000 for development. The cost for development seems inexpensive for a large corporation where if they staffed someone themselves, that would be less than 1 month and there's certainly no way 1 person could write an entire app in a month (that should be in sarcasm font - but that is how upper mgmt thinks).

The offshore companies profit lies between what they pay people and what they charge the mega-corp. Some offshore companies cut corners in this area - so you will hear things like "they only did the minimum", "they can't think out of the box", etc. This is likely because the developers have too many projects and really aren't encouraged to go above and beyond since that will not help the profit margin.

A lot of the offshore companies have attrition problems as well which help contribute to the stereotype that developers from those countries are unskilled or cheap.

From your writing on your blog, you are a better writer than what I've seen coming from some companies in my day job. You're doing the right things by blogging and maybe you should start a github repo for your side projects so future potential employers can see your capabilities first hand. Work on your spoken English/American English as well (I have nothing to judge on but this can be a barrier), the better you become at this the faster you can break through that stereotype.

If you aspire to work for a startup, see if there is a startup scene in your area.

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#34
post #4

If there's a "India == bad devs" stereotype, it's more the result of cheap American outsourcers trying to get bargain basement prices on Indian dev labor and then being unsatisfied with what they get. Sorry but you give cheap, you get cheap. No form of software development is a rote, repetitive process that you can just drag in anyone who can fog glass off the street and sit them down at an assembly line to do. It's…

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#35
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That "test" is completely ridiculous and meaningless.

Would you like to make an argument in favor of your assertion?

The implication is that by changing the word/picture associations at each level, they will eventually trick you into revealing that you are racist, as you mistakenly associate the negative words to the race which you are allegedly prejudice against. Wouldn't it be just as likely that people would click because they simply mixed up which side of the screen the association was supposed to go on? Such a mistake could also be attributed to a lack of attention or even clumsiness. It seems like the test takes a huge leap of logic by automatically associating the mistakes with racism. Twice throughout the test I mistakenly clicked the wrong side for a negative word association. Once it was with an African American portrait and once it was with a European American portrait. One would think that this would even things out, but the test determined that I'm a racist because I got blue and red mixed up.

As I said, it's utterly ridiculous.

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#36
post #4

If there's a "India == bad devs" stereotype, it's more the result of cheap American outsourcers trying to get bargain basement prices on Indian dev labor and then being unsatisfied with what they get. Sorry but you give cheap, you get cheap. No form of software development is a rote, repetitive process that you can just drag in anyone who can fog glass off the street and sit them down at an assembly line to do. It's…

The problem with these outsourcers is they that they expect Indian programmers to work out quality code while paying They don't realize its unfair to pay a good programmer much lower (even considering the Purchasing Power Gap) than one in US and bear the fruits of hiring a bad dev.

Even $10 is way too low (at least an order of magnitude!) for a good dev.

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#38
Many Indian developers choose their field based on parental and social pressure. I've been working with students in Engineering colleges in India and a significant fraction say that they joined Engineering just because their parents told them to and/or because they want high paying jobs. It's considered undignified in some sense to not have a professional degree. This causes an increase in demand and consequently, private players and others step in to meet it. These institutions churn out a huge number of engineering graduates every year who don't particularly care about their field or their job. That's the first stage. You have a huge pool of (at best) average developers. They're entire "programming education" is four years of working on outdated technologies and a shaky theoretical foundation taught to them by (mostly) uninterested teachers.

The next stage is the service companies. If you're an A player, and these are as common in the Indian tech. community as in others though they're harder to find because the large number of people you have to wade through to get to them, you'll already have some open source contributions and contacts with other good programmers and they'll get there. The others, who are the bulk, don't have all of these privileges and don't know what to do. To their aid come service companies. These are the organisations I blame for most of the, often justified, stereotypes of Indian programmers. They hire people in bulk, give them some focussed training (since their formal education is often worthless) and then expose them to the world of cheap outsourced software development.

This is where many foreign devs and Indian devs meet and this is the "most average" of the Indian tech. crowd you'll find. They're uninterested, driven by things low on Maslow's pyramid and generally worry about things like saving face, getting promotions, pleasing managers and rising up the social and professional ladder rather than good tech.

Naturally, these people are "cheap" and "unskilled". They were selected from the larger pool for mostly those reasons.

If you've come into contact with Indian devs from good tech. conferences, mailing lists, free software projects, irc or other such fora, your experience is bound to be difference since you're meeting the ones that have gone through another filter.

The sad thing is that the education systems can crush people and make them unmotivated and uninterested. That's what I'm trying to remedy, atleast to some extent, with my latest endeavour. I've taught students at colleges and there's often some spark in them that can be nurtured. I've done corporate trainings for fresher batches at service companies and they often couldn't care less. It's too late by then for many people.

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#39
Disclosure: I am based out of the Indian subcontinent & have deep professional ties with the bay area for little over a decade.

I myself would assume that the skill levels at 90th percentile of all developers from India is well below the median levels of the valley. The distortion is partly contributed by the number of graduates entering the industry. The main contributor of this situation would be people's motives. There is a huge difference between aspiring for fame & world domination/peace v/s what is deemed as a high income job (the notion of "high" is relative to national income levels).

So the obvious answers are as follows: there is fundamental difference in the calibre of people that depends on their motivation and there are dominant motivations that varies by geographies.

What would be interesting is to stop looking at this as a US v/s SEA thing and instead pick a region from any first world country where dominant motivation of developers is to just get by and see how it fares against the valley.

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#40

Many Indian developers choose their field based on parental and social pressure. I've been working with students in Engineering colleges in India and a significant fraction say that they joined Engineering just because their parents told them to and/or because they want high paying jobs. It's considered undignified in some sense to not have a professional degree. This causes an increase in demand and consequently, pr…

This fits with my experience. It's not that Indian engineers are inherently bad, it's that they are often uninterested in what they do for a living. They're not passionate. They feel forced into engineering because of social expectations. And it shows.
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