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The White Hat's Dilemma

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Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#31

Post by kalkin »

tptacek wrote: post #20

Here's an alternative vantage point, my vantage point, one I think makes these kinds of ethical quandaries easier to navigate: * I'm not a "white hat" or a "black hat" * I'm not deliberately involved in any kind of "cyber" conflict * I don't do what I do because I'm battling the forces of evil, or organized crime, or anything else Instead: I do engineering. The same way a contract driver developer does, or a Rails de…

> he wants to be a part of something larger than himself

In fact, you too are part of something larger than yourself and as you work you make decisions that affect it (us) whether or not you think about it. Ignoring an ethical quandary isn't the same as escaping it.

So what ethical stance are you saying you take? You identify as "amoral" and seem to use that to mean "simply self-interested", where self-interest involves doing a craft you enjoy. But then you say there are jobs you wouldn't take for reasons external to the technology. cgag's question is a good one, and I think the contradiction there points to a flaw in the approach of starting out by thinking you can avoid ethical choices. Since you can't really, the only result will be that you make them without thinking them through.

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#32

Post by kalkin »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #30
kalkin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What s/he did can be perfectly natural and not imply that s/he's a worse-than-average person, but still be worthy of shame. I don't mean to be an asshole here, but it's important for all of us to recognize that normal humans (ie. we) have a capacity to do awful things if circumstances encourage it - the Stanford Prison Experiment would be a famous illustration. That's why these slides are helpful.

I agree, and I'd also like to mention the other usually cited experiment along those lines - the Milgram obedience experiment. http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_Experiment

Thanks for the reminder.

If you are ever placed into a situation psychologically and ethically analogous to these experiments--a possibility that in a militarized and capitalist world it seems wise not to dismiss--and you want to acquit yourself better, what can you do? One option is to just have faith that you'll turn out to be an exceptionally good person. But that doesn't seem to me to be much wiser than assuming that no one with authority will ever encourage you to do something wrong. I think a better option, per the OP, is to think seriously in advance about what kind of situations might arise in your actual life and how you would like yourself to respond.

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#33

Post by secalex »

tptacek wrote: post #20

Here's an alternative vantage point, my vantage point, one I think makes these kinds of ethical quandaries easier to navigate: * I'm not a "white hat" or a "black hat" * I'm not deliberately involved in any kind of "cyber" conflict * I don't do what I do because I'm battling the forces of evil, or organized crime, or anything else Instead: I do engineering. The same way a contract driver developer does, or a Rails de…

Tom,

I missed you at Defcon for multiple reasons, not the least being the opportunity to get your feedback on the talk as delivered. Maybe we can run a pan-NCC internal conference this fall and see what everybody else is working on. Chicago is nice and central between SF and Manchester.

A big part of the talk was my theory that our industry can no longer claim neutrality; like medicine or law, our actions have become innately entwined with ethical dilemmas that I feel to be better dealt with explicitly and ahead of the moment of decision. I don't think you necessarily disagree, since you lay out two lines you are not willing to cross even if you do not specify your reasoning.

I expect somebody as seasoned and experienced as you can make these decisions subconsciously without violating your basic principles. Younger, less experienced individuals may find this to be a greater challenge and they were the real target of my talk.

In my eyes your actions definitely make you a white hat, even if you avoid the label.

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#34

Post by blake8086 »

tptacek wrote: post #20

Here's an alternative vantage point, my vantage point, one I think makes these kinds of ethical quandaries easier to navigate: * I'm not a "white hat" or a "black hat" * I'm not deliberately involved in any kind of "cyber" conflict * I don't do what I do because I'm battling the forces of evil, or organized crime, or anything else Instead: I do engineering. The same way a contract driver developer does, or a Rails de…

What answers would you give to the questions he posed?

How would you hope other people would answer them?

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#35

Post by mr_spothawk »

throwaway3902 wrote: post #8

I used to work for Blizzard. The Chinese government requested that we modify the WoW client so that they could intercept all chat. As far as I know, no-one said anything, including me - and Blizzard, of course, was more than happy to comply, given the size of the market and the risk of being forbidden to do business there. There were plenty of other MMOGs happy to play ball and eat that cake. I didn't say anything. I…

Fuck it, I'll go ahead and say it:

First, thanks for coming clean. You're a human being who's made a really bad decision.

You should feel terrible for this. "They" are not merely your possible friends, or your relative's relatives, or your neighbors' cousins... "They" are other human beings who might someday decide to stand up for their human rights. "They" are millions of people you sold out for easy "dinner" & "rent".

And now the tool you helped build to invade their privacy is likely being turned on all your real friends, and your real relatives, and your real neighbors. And you're not even getting paid anymore.

You should feel terrible for selling out for so little. You weren't as afraid of being unemployed as you were of having to do something. You were mentally lazy and your moral compass was clearly defunct.

Too bad your behavior is not undoable and you'll have to live with it for the rest of your life. Maybe you can do something to recover for it in the future.

Hopefully your ethical failure can serve as an example of what not to do.

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#36

Post by lmartel »

Qantourisc wrote: post #28

Why do people even sign NDA's ?

Have you ever worked for a company that didn't ask you to sign one?

That's not rhetorical, I'm curious--it seems that virtually every company has some amount of proprietary information, isn't that what drives competitive advantage in software?

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#37

Post by Phlarp »

Qantourisc wrote: post #28

Why do people even sign NDA's ?

Most freelancers sign an NDA before even being considered for a contract or project. It's a pretty standard part of any employment arrangement in our industry.

Ask the opposite question, as an entrepreneur; why would you even ask someone to sign an NDA.

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#38

Post by ian00 »

throwaway3902 wrote: post #8

I used to work for Blizzard. The Chinese government requested that we modify the WoW client so that they could intercept all chat. As far as I know, no-one said anything, including me - and Blizzard, of course, was more than happy to comply, given the size of the market and the risk of being forbidden to do business there. There were plenty of other MMOGs happy to play ball and eat that cake. I didn't say anything. I…

How about a program that would encrypt/decrypt game chat for users, since the wow interface has programmability. The act of commenting here and anonymously disclosing this, is a good thing.

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#39

Post by xnxn »

lmartel wrote: post #36
Qantourisc wrote: post #28

Why do people even sign NDA's ?

Have you ever worked for a company that didn't ask you to sign one? That's not rhetorical, I'm curious--it seems that virtually every company has some amount of proprietary information, isn't that what drives competitive advantage in software?

Sure, I've never had to sign one (for any employer).

Re: The White Hat's Dilemma

#40

Post by [deleted] »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #25
cgag wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about this vantage point leads you to say no when Narus asks you to help with their spy software or whatever?

It's categorical rejection. Instead of opening up that venue and having to navigate the murky waters of cognitive dissonance and moral obligations against lucrative opportunity, you simply don't open the door. You stick to a client base that is meaningful (relatively so) but not highly impactful and potentially dangerous down the road.

[deleted]
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