Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer? • Hacker News Board

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#141

Post by yogo » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 8:00 PM UTC

imsofuture wrote: post #134

While stupidity isn't a crime, people like Serge manage to find their way around that obstacle. It's pretty obvious he didn't have any malicious or illegal intent, but he definitely followed the checklist of 'things not to do when leaving a job'. Emailing yourself code? Seriously? The whole thing is a travesty, but he walked right into it.

That was my impression too. For someone that smart in a technical field, some things just seemed a little to casual or didn't make much sense. Deleting your bash history because there might be passwords in it? I generally give the benefit of the doubt to the guy in his position--maybe he was in a hurry or got comfortable being one of the chosen few super users--but, you have to think wtf.

At a company like that where IP is highly valuable and you are paid handsomely, you know right off the bat that every character of code you right belongs to the company before even seeing employment and/or confidentiality agreements.

Dating another woman or stuffing a large object in your trunk late at night right after your wife dies, does not look good. You may very well be innocent, but it doesn't look good.

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#142

Post by mahyarm » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 8:00 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #27

waffle_ss wrote: post #20

On the night of the arrest—without an arrest warrant—Serge waived his right to call a lawyer. He phoned his wife and told her what had happened and that a bunch of F.B.I. agents were on the way to their home to seize their computers, and to please let them in—though they had no search warrant, either. Then he sat down and politely tried to clear up the F.B.I. agent's confusion. "He was completely not interested in th…

That video is right up there with knowing about 83b elections as some of the most valuable information one can possibly possess. I rewatch it annually and send out mass emails to all my friends and family when I do reminding them to do so as well.

Unless the total price of the stock grant is financially negligible at the point of hire, the %5 tax difference isn't that great of an advantage compared to the risk since most startups fail.

I think vested stock options not expiring a few months after leaving the company is far more valuable, but no one does that. It would allow you to put no money down and only exercise when the options are actually liquid without being forced to purchase the stock at some point due to circumstances not under your control.

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#143

Post by sfall » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 8:02 PM UTC

gknoy wrote: post #93

zeteo wrote: post #48

The justice system is, of course, still in the business of catching and punishing murderers, thieves and such. But, with the decline in crime since the early '90s, this side of their activity is becoming increasingly supplemented by a different game altogether: enforcing a growing set of complex laws against practically everything [1]. There is a lot of prosecutorial discretion in choosing which of these laws to enfo…

Once targeted by something like this, how does one go about finding a competent lawyer? How do I evaluate their competency?

look at their boy of work, their specialty, their work history, and then sit down and talk with them they should be able to quickly start asking questions about relevant specifics

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#144

Post by Ruska » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 8:03 PM UTC

j_baker wrote: post #97

zeteo wrote: post #48

The justice system is, of course, still in the business of catching and punishing murderers, thieves and such. But, with the decline in crime since the early '90s, this side of their activity is becoming increasingly supplemented by a different game altogether: enforcing a growing set of complex laws against practically everything [1]. There is a lot of prosecutorial discretion in choosing which of these laws to enfo…

Most importantly, don't say anything that might incriminate you. Even if they have you on video doing it with hundreds of witnesses and DNA evidence.

Don't say anything. At all. Nothing you say will help your circumstances, but it can hurt you.

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#145

Post by msandford » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 8:03 PM UTC

BWStearns wrote: post #135

msandford wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be, but it's a CIVIL issue not a CRIMINAL one.

The commercial espionage laws might justify bringing it into a criminal case, although (and I'm only on page 7 here) it doesn't seem like they proved, or even attempted to, that the removal of the code was in the interest of using it in his new endeavor. From the sounds of it he was primarily interested in bringing out some modified libraries. So while incidentally bringing out the proprietary code might well qualify…

Ultimately it looks like a case of GS being able to command the government to do things. Why that's possible I have no idea. Unless they have a lot of dirt on everyone in the world.

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#146

Post by lightbritefight » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 8:11 PM UTC

Ruska wrote: post #144

j_baker wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most importantly, don't say anything that might incriminate you. Even if they have you on video doing it with hundreds of witnesses and DNA evidence.

Don't say anything. At all. Nothing you say will help your circumstances, but it can hurt you.

Actually, according to the supreme court, you have to verbally invoke your right to remain silent. If you dont, and they harass you for 16 hours and you say anything, its fair game. If you do, and they opt to keep harassing you, its not.

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#147

Post by gclaramunt » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 8:16 PM UTC

vasilipupkin wrote: post #53

doug1001 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's inaccurate. I just read the Lewis article and there are plenty of facts recited there contradict your summary; none of those facts support it. He deleted his bash history, which many programmers do every day, indeed, that's what the justice department used as evidence that he "deleted the audit trail" Once you look at the details of this case--in fact, even just the details as recited in the public documents f…

In our industry( HFT ) generally, you sign all sorts of agreements which specifically prohibit you from taking any code whatsoever from your employer without specific authorization to do so. Michael Lewis article almost makes it sound like its Goldman's fault. But the fact is, he signed agreements that prohibited him from doing stuff like this and then did it anyway

IANAL, but that wouldn't be just a breach of contract and not something for the FBI to investigate?

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#148

Post by BudVVeezer » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 8:16 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #81

melling wrote: post #18

In case people aren't clear on this. He worked in an industry that takes this sort of thing very seriously. He shouldn't have even been trying to download open source from work. You don't email stuff home to work on it, for example.

Banks take security v seriously even trying to plug a usb drive into you pc to copy files will be logged and will probably get you fired.

That must explain my bank's insistence on not having passwords greater than 9 characters, without spaces or most "special characters." They take security seriously!

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#149

Post by BWStearns » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 8:23 PM UTC

ben0x539 wrote: post #98

Fuxy wrote: post #87

That's the problem with the American judicial system. Whenever they want to convict someone innocent of a bullshit crime they just assemble of idiots who just say guilty to go home to their trailer. Have they heard of the phrase "jury of their pears" that actually means pears not of the same species. I wouldn't consider any of the people on that jury my pears.

(peers)

I for one would be fascinated to see a jury of pears.

Re: Did Goldman Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

#150

Post by cowsandmilk » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 8:28 PM UTC

biero wrote: post #140

RockyMcNuts wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

whatever he or anyone at Goldman did on that open-source code, belongs to Goldman, and he can't assign the rights of or share it, either, it's up to Goldman (and the terms of the license).

> it's up to Goldman (and the terms of the license). It is really up to the license, Goldman either selected licenses where they could legally avoid sending upstream changes or planned to violate the law in secrecy. If they did the latter on just one license, then he should qualify as a whistle blower.

what common open source licenses would require them to send changes upstream? Or really, what licenses would require them to release the modified code to the public?

GPL requires you to make source code available to anyone who you distribute the program to. If you're just putting code on servers, there's no obligation. Even if you distribute internally, you usually are technically distributing to the company for installation on their computers.

Even the AGPL, designed to be viral for web applications, requires the operator of the server to make the code available to users of the server. Assuming all users were Goldman Sachs employees, I don't see any legal obligation for them to contribute back to the community.

Pretty much all other licenses are less copyleft than GPL and AGPL and would be even less likely to trigger source code distribution requirements.