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Give Snowden his due: He made a surveillance debate possible

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Re: Give Snowden his due: He made a surveillance debate possible

#21

Post by nkassis »

alipang wrote: post #7
staunch wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll settle for a pardon.

Like the one Bradley Manning got.

I know this will probably initiate a huge debate but I'm not personally convinced that what Bradley Manning released and what Snowden released is equivalent in scope. In the case of Snowden the documents seem much more targeted to exposing the problem he's trying to bring light on. While Manning made a much broad stroke release of tons of documents probably not even knowing the content of all those documents which totaled almost 500,000.

Re: Give Snowden his due: He made a surveillance debate possible

#23

Post by lukifer »

bparsons wrote: post #8

Today was disheartening. The Guardian writes an expose on what should be the greatest political scandal of our lifetime- the fact that low level contractors and government employees can access all of our chat history, emails and browsing history. The response? No one on social media is really discussing it, CNN America only has a passing mention of it on their front page (buried near the bottom) and America goes on w…

"People do not react to abstractions. They only react to direct experience. Very few people are even interested in abstractions, and even fewer people can become emotionally involved or emotionally react to an abstract thing."

- Stanley Kubrick http://youtu.be/xa-KBqOFgDQ?t=51m30s

It's worth noting that this was in the context of nothing less than the atom bomb.

Re: Give Snowden his due: He made a surveillance debate possible

#24

Post by dllthomas »

lukifer wrote: post #19
dllthomas wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under the current administration, I'm hoping we even get any sort of meaningful response to the pardon petition ( https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snow... ). I'm holding out a tiny glimmer of hope that Obama comes to his senses enough to pardon for the domestic pieces. It doesn't seem likely, but doesn't seem to directly contradict what he's said, and maybe Obama can pre-emptively compromise wi…

The deadline's approaching. My money is on "We are unable to comment on an ongoing investigation."

That does seem most likely, and I would not count it as meaningful. They've also said before that they don't comment on individual pardons, though I can't think of a good reason for that.

In this case, though, the pardon itself would be a substantial piece of policy. I think it would be disingenuous and disrespectful of the administration to refuse comment.

I expect to be disrespected, but hold out some small amount of hope that they will surprise me.

Re: Give Snowden his due: He made a surveillance debate possible

#25

Post by adventured »

bparsons wrote: post #8

Today was disheartening. The Guardian writes an expose on what should be the greatest political scandal of our lifetime- the fact that low level contractors and government employees can access all of our chat history, emails and browsing history. The response? No one on social media is really discussing it, CNN America only has a passing mention of it on their front page (buried near the bottom) and America goes on w…

America is overloaded on stimulation. For something to get attention, it has to be extraordinarily sensationalistic. These stories are boring government spy stuff to average joe. The NSA would need to be eating babies, assaulting the family dog, promoting / blocking abortions, promoting / taking guns, or the equivalent.

I would argue that half of the country only gets fired up about something when they're told to do so by the party they vote for, the same one that dictates what they believe on any given issue. That's why it hurts that there is a Democrat in the Presidency right now, it has silenced a lot of the supposed civil rights advocates on the left.

Re: Give Snowden his due: He made a surveillance debate possible

#27

Post by ihsw »

nkassis wrote: post #21
alipang wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the one Bradley Manning got.

I know this will probably initiate a huge debate but I'm not personally convinced that what Bradley Manning released and what Snowden released is equivalent in scope. In the case of Snowden the documents seem much more targeted to exposing the problem he's trying to bring light on. While Manning made a much broad stroke release of tons of documents probably not even knowing the content of all those documents which to…

Any person that looks at the two situations and compares them objectively would come to the same conclusion -- one was reckless and negligent while the other was intentional and targeted.

At the risk of diminishing Manning's plight, I'm sure whistleblowers like Snowden are exactly the kind that Wikileaks wants supporting them.

Also, it stands to reason that Manning's plight itself may have inspired Snowden.

Re: Give Snowden his due: He made a surveillance debate possible

#28

Post by conanbatt »

frenchy wrote: post #9
bparsons wrote: post #8

Today was disheartening. The Guardian writes an expose on what should be the greatest political scandal of our lifetime- the fact that low level contractors and government employees can access all of our chat history, emails and browsing history. The response? No one on social media is really discussing it, CNN America only has a passing mention of it on their front page (buried near the bottom) and America goes on w…

> What does it take to get American's outraged about something? sex

When this story brokeout, i had the idea that the best way to publicize this is to find an example of a private sexual conversation on record, which they obviously have. Would have been interesting for Snowden to get one of those just in case.

That, or an inside trading potential example.

Money or sex is something everyone understands.

Re: Give Snowden his due: He made a surveillance debate possible

#29

Post by dllthomas »

northwest wrote: post #18

Also: What does everybody expect from "the debate"? Is there a way we can get out of this mess? I currently don't see any, besides the one with massive loss. Please, anybody, correct me.

Call me naive, but I would be surprised to learn that these systems are being used to overtly control the electoral process. So the way out of this mess is to talk to your friends and family and make sure they understand the issues and what is at stake, and make sure they do the same. Elect politicians who will do better - Obama promised and didn't deliver, but the issue only seemed to matter to a sliver of what were basically his base anyway. In the wake of an election with this issue more front-and-center, because the people have demanded the issue remain more front-and-center, I'm not convinced you'll see the same behavior.

Re: Give Snowden his due: He made a surveillance debate possible

#30

Post by ihsw »

bparsons wrote: post #8

Today was disheartening. The Guardian writes an expose on what should be the greatest political scandal of our lifetime- the fact that low level contractors and government employees can access all of our chat history, emails and browsing history. The response? No one on social media is really discussing it, CNN America only has a passing mention of it on their front page (buried near the bottom) and America goes on w…

Take away their bread and circuses[1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses

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