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XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

theguardian.com

551–560 of 641 posts

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#551
post #120

I am going to be obliterated for this comment! Does the fact they've caught 300 terrorists in anyway justify what they're doing? I am not saying it does, I just wondered what people's thoughts were (although I can guess!). It's interesting that it was included in the article in an attempt to give it some 'balance'..

Yea...no. The problem with being a habitual liar is that people can't trust you even if you tell the truth. That 300 number sounds as much bullshit to me as all their other claims.

"We don't gather any data."

"We only gather metadata."

"Ok fine, we gather everything."

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#552
post #522
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And look at slide 17: "Show me all VPN startups in country X, and give me data so I can decrypt and discover users ." Holy crap. Is all encryption broken?

I think so. Yes. IIRC, the first time I saw this leaked was a combo leak by a Navy Seal and a member of the Executive. The Seal leaked that they powered down Bin Laden's computers to take his hard drives after they shot him. The Executive member said that the drives were encrypted and it would take a few days to get the data. Jihadis are known to use a custom version of PGP with 2048bit RSA keys. They either used tha…

Good info. Do you have any sources online you can point to?

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#553
post #522
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And look at slide 17: "Show me all VPN startups in country X, and give me data so I can decrypt and discover users ." Holy crap. Is all encryption broken?

I think so. Yes. IIRC, the first time I saw this leaked was a combo leak by a Navy Seal and a member of the Executive. The Seal leaked that they powered down Bin Laden's computers to take his hard drives after they shot him. The Executive member said that the drives were encrypted and it would take a few days to get the data. Jihadis are known to use a custom version of PGP with 2048bit RSA keys. They either used tha…

Breaking RSA is just a matter of managing to factor prime numbers faster than anyone else, isn't it? Unless if there is some sort of oversight inside the RSA algorithm that allows the encryption to be broken easier.

Do you have more information on the smooth barrier? I did a quick google but didn't see much relevant.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#554
post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The technical possibility isn't the new and staggering part, it's the profound lack of morality, respect for any ideal whatsoever, and compete apathy towards the oaths these people took to serve us . They have compeley misused the power we granted them in sacred trust. We should remove it from them at once. If this has become impossible, we need to know that as soon as we can.

> The technical possibility isn't the new and staggering part, it's the profound lack of morality, respect for any ideal whatsoever, and compete apathy towards the oaths these people took to serve us. Again, I'll chime in as the resident apologist. The people working at Fort Meade are not evil. They truly believe they're doing a great service to the nation. They may be wrong, and they've certainly thrown privacy out…

>The people working at Fort Meade are not evil. They truly believe they're doing a great service to the nation.

I don't want to Godwin the discussion here, but it's not at all rare for people to act in an evil (or whatever you want to call it -- bad, harmful) way while not recognizing their own actions as evil.

That people don't think their actions are evil doesn't prove that their actions aren't evil.

Add to that, evil acts are almost always done in service of an ideal. For example the USA has economically and socially gutted many nations by force in service of the democratic/free-market ideal. Yet it's rare to find an American who sees it this way. US-USSR proxy wars in the Middle East and Latin America from the 60s-90s weren't destructive, we were just trying to help those countries out. We wanted to modernize them, to improve their lives, not to destroy them. They were just too uncivilized, too barbaric to get it. Why would they hate us for that?

Hence 'ideology'. Easy to serve, hard to view objectively when you've spent a lifetime on the inside.

>We have had the luxury of coming of age in a time where there is no credible threat to our very national and physical existence.

The Berlin wall didn't fall until 1989. The Soviet Union didn't dissolve until 1991. The period of 1991-2001 was spent fighting proxy wars in former USSR terrories or allies [1]. Iraq. The Yugoslav Wars in Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo. Haiti. All of this was an extension of the cold war. The Red threat didn't officially end until 09/11/01, Communism continued to be a spectre held over the head of the American public. It's just the discourse shifted from "the USSR has bombs that can kill us right now" to "Communism is bad therefore we're preventing it from spreading". The constancy of threat and surety of the potential for complete annihilation was always there.

And of course, from 2001 on everyone spent all day, every day thinking of the most horrible ways they could be attacked by terrorists. With great encouragement by media and government apparatuses.

>But let's not demonize the individuals. After all, they're only doing what the people demanded after we were attacked.

Again avoiding Godwinning, but to a certain extent you must demonize the individuals. Else there is no incentive for people to be vigilant of runaway ideology, like the US is operating under currently. Else there is no incentive for individuals to formulate a moral compass external to the state, because why bother when "they told me to do it" is a legitimate excuse? The state idology becomes your morality. After all, you're just tryin' to put food on your family.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_mili...

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crackpot => unsupported by evidence. Calling proprietary software evil is an opinion, and there are plenty of examples of evidence that proprietary software was created in ways that one could label as evil. Give it a while and there might be some revelation which will cause lots of people to go 'oh, that Stallman was such a visionary, calling proprietary software evil'. Now on this particular aspect of Stallman's rea…

Moral judgements are subjective opinion by nature, fair enough, but I bring the crackpot label in for exactly what you say, thinking in absolutes, in black and white, instead of nuance. In the real world, that shows a distressing lack of critical thinking and a further distressing abundance of dogmatism. "Proprietary software is bad" -- Subjective value judgement. "Properitary software is evil" -- Subjective value ju…

The proprietary software as evil thing comes as a morality judgment, that the potential evils from such software/licensing far outway whatever positive nuance it could bring to the table. A nuanced reading of the past 75 years of copyright/patent law and judgments can come to the conclusion that such an ecosystem is detrimental to the rights and ability of end-users and developers.

Guess what the solution to the proprietary software problem is? Not using or promoting proprietary software or platforms that enable it.

You are getting upset that the Free Software Foundation has standards to be met to consider software as "free". To dismiss their agenda as existing in 'crackpot' territory is invalidating a legitimate argument to support your shaky conclusion.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would Google (or anyone) link to them directly? with fiber no less! this stuff is alarming enough no need for FUD. Who says Google has a choice or is even complicit? The backbone providers have mostly stayed mum and it's known that the likes of AT&T split their fiber for the NSA. If we're willing to go to the bottom of the ocean to tap fiber lines it's pretty easy to believe that we'd tap terrestrial lines too.

My understanding is that internet firms enjoy slightly more leverage, and that is why in contrast to telecos they are now petitioning the courts to reveal the scope of the orders.

That's all hand-waving. The courts won't allow it, the giants know that, so the internet giants use it as a chance to look good. Furthermore, it benefits the NSA for us all to think that Google, Yahoo, et. al., are not in their pocket.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#557
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. There were a lot of people from the government that came out in the past few months and said there are checks and balances and a lot of oversight in these processes. That clearly isn't true. It will be interesting to go back through all of those statements with this new information/evidence on hand. Greenwald has timed this well. He put out enough information early on to give Snowden opponents enough rope wi…

And if his comment further down in the thread is anything to go by then there is a lot more to come. It's an interesting problem for the talking heads: How much will be revealed? They're caught between a rock and a hard place, if they start telling the truth they might reveal something that the leaked docs don't support, but if they tell a lie they might be found out. This trickle strategy is working very well. The b…

It's pretty impressive how Greenwald, Snowden et al are organizing the staggering/trickling. They're not just releasing any old info at periodic intervals. They seem to be anticipating the responses NSA/USG will give to particular leaks (e.g. analysts can't run searches, there are checks and balances) and choosing next leaks based on how they can prove those NSA/USG statements wrong.

It's like the Socratic method for public/government relations.

The goal seems not just to be exposing the magnitide of this surveillance system, but also the government's systemic disregard for public mandate in the USA right now.

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#558
post #455
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let's assume the NSA still has these capabilities (a fairly reasonable assumption), and with SSL/HTTPS as a fairly feasible security option, how would these capabilities be possible? Either services aren't committed to and endorsing the use HTTPS/SSL and/or they are actively granting access to user information. Are those two reasonable conclusions? I'm trying to understand why services are not taking a more active…

Did nobody look at the PowerPoint itself? From page 17 ( http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jul/31/nsa... ): > * Show me all the VPN startups in country X, and give me the data so I can decrypt and discover the users. > * These events are easily browsable in XKEYSCORE As I understand it (and I may be wrong), most encrypted VPN traffic uses SSL. Given that XKeyscore data is only held for a few days (due…

Poul-Henning Kamp: """With expenditures of this scale, there are a whole host of things one could buy to weaken encryption. I would contact providers of popular cloud and "whatever-as-service" providers and make them an offer they couldn't refuse: on all HTTPS connections out of the country, the symmetric key cannot be random; it must come from a dictionary of 100 million random-looking keys that I provide. The key from the other side? Slip that in there somewhere, and I can find it (encrypted in a Set-Cookie header?)."""

http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2508864

Re: XKeyscore: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

#560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, telling people to do something hard (open source, keep privacy, etc.) in the face of a barely perceived danger (government is coming to get you) is kind of a hard message to get heard. Aside from that, I didn't mean to seriously suggest that he's out there passing judgement on us so much as I was attempting to acknowledge how hypocritical we are for having disregarded his message because of his ecce…

So you're expecting the world to come to terms with Stallman, rather than the other way around. Think about that for a minute, and then explain to me why that makes more sense.

Speak for yourself. Stallman is a massively influential thinker that has indisputably changed the world positively. A lot of the world has reshaped itself to attempt to resemble Stallman's dreams. His contribution was to have the dreams and to share them in material ways, and he didn't even owe us that.

You're in the bizarre position of criticizing him for being right. You're expecting Stallman to figure out a way to market to you, rather than expecting yourself to figure out how to evaluate arguments and evidence rationally. Think about that for a minute, and then explain to me why that wouldn't make more sense.

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