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Kanban – The Secret Engineer Killer

blog.aha.io

11–20 of 68 posts

Re: Kanban – The Secret Engineer Killer

#11
Like 'fad diets' most of the reasons that kanban fails is because the organization was sick to begin with and kanban would have helped if not for the structure of the organization in the first place.

Fad diets mostly fail because people go back to eating the same shitty way they did before, just as when a team adopts kanban marketing and product go back to the same stupid way of doing things they did before.

The sad part is that in the vast majority of organization engineering actually knows more about the product than product or marketing.

The core of it is that most engineers don't want to work on the stupid fucking ideas that product and marketing come up with instead preferring to make the product 'good' instead of creating feature parity with some competitor.

If product and marketing were actually good at their jobs they should at least be able to convince the engineers in their own fucking company that what they are thinking is a good idea. Right now I'm picturing the eye-rolls at Porsche when product and marketing announced the idea for the Panamara.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2012/09/of-course-we-need...

Re: Kanban – The Secret Engineer Killer

#12
I am a fan of Kanban, so whatever I say will be through the rose tinted glasses of a fan. There maybe various reasons why Kanban has failed for many companies. I haven't worked in those teams so I have no way to say is it because of Kanban or is it because of management misunderstanding kanban.

From your article, the main reason touted is that the Marketing loses it's way. Which to me sounds strange! In fact I have seen it the otherways. We effectively delink marketing cadence from engineering cadence! Thus resulting in derisking the whole big bang releases.

For e.g. Marketing decides that they are going to make a big marketing push on a conference or a tradeshow. So the PM come up with a list of features they will showcase for the given event. (say 10 features are decided upon). The engineering team works on these features as a que. Releasing each of these as and when they are done. But do note an engineering release to production does not mean a marketing release. This allows the PM to experiment on features, build up case studies, etc ... for these features.

And as the marketing releases dates come closer, everybody knows that we always have a working copy with only the pending items in the que. This results in a high confidence level within the marketing / engineering on what is being touted about. There are no last minute scramble to get a working system. etc ... The most valuable feature was heavily tested and used by everyone before the big bang marketing release.

It also allows the PM to make A/B experiments before the actual marketing push. Thus adding another confidence layer to the whole process.

In a worst case scenario the least valuable features never get released for the marketing push.

I see this as an effective way to derisk the whole marketing push and reduce their dependency on the engineering team to deliver stuff when they said they would.

Re: Kanban – The Secret Engineer Killer

#13
post #11

Like 'fad diets' most of the reasons that kanban fails is because the organization was sick to begin with and kanban would have helped if not for the structure of the organization in the first place. Fad diets mostly fail because people go back to eating the same shitty way they did before, just as when a team adopts kanban marketing and product go back to the same stupid way of doing things they did before. The sad…

"The sad part is that in the vast majority of organization engineering actually knows more about the product than product or marketing."

This so much.

Re: Kanban – The Secret Engineer Killer

#15
post #11

Like 'fad diets' most of the reasons that kanban fails is because the organization was sick to begin with and kanban would have helped if not for the structure of the organization in the first place. Fad diets mostly fail because people go back to eating the same shitty way they did before, just as when a team adopts kanban marketing and product go back to the same stupid way of doing things they did before. The sad…

I agree with your thoughts around dysfunction as it relates to fad diets and poor habits. I also think that many engineers think they know best, but in a well functioning org PM actually knows the customers and market and has a collaborative relationship with engineering. Do you think that PM has no role or that in most cases they just don't do it well?

Re: Kanban – The Secret Engineer Killer

#16
post #13
post #11

Like 'fad diets' most of the reasons that kanban fails is because the organization was sick to begin with and kanban would have helped if not for the structure of the organization in the first place. Fad diets mostly fail because people go back to eating the same shitty way they did before, just as when a team adopts kanban marketing and product go back to the same stupid way of doing things they did before. The sad…

"The sad part is that in the vast majority of organization engineering actually knows more about the product than product or marketing." This so much.

They might know more about the product but in a functioning org if they know more about the customers or market -- something is terribly wrong (unless it is software for engineers). Agree?

Re: Kanban – The Secret Engineer Killer

#17
post #11

Like 'fad diets' most of the reasons that kanban fails is because the organization was sick to begin with and kanban would have helped if not for the structure of the organization in the first place. Fad diets mostly fail because people go back to eating the same shitty way they did before, just as when a team adopts kanban marketing and product go back to the same stupid way of doing things they did before. The sad…

I agree with your thoughts around dysfunction as it relates to fad diets and poor habits. I also think that many engineers think they know best, but in a well functioning org PM actually knows the customers and market and has a collaborative relationship with engineering. Do you think that PM has no role or that in most cases they just don't do it well?

On the contrary in the Kanban process, PM is the pivotal role. They control the que, the cadence of feature releases, etc ... Without an effective PM, the whole thing will fall as a pack of cards.

Re: Kanban – The Secret Engineer Killer

#18
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the comment. I actually spent a considerably amount of time looking for a meaningful reference. I found the Popkess-Vawter 1998 reference, but could not find the original text. Do you have a better number for "failure" or reference that I could use? I would be happy to update the post.

Hard to say. Either you rely on clinical studies, which give you pathologically-skewed sample bias, or you use the National Weight Control Registry, which will be skewed to people wanting to report successful weight control.

Thanks. I am not an expert in this area (diet success data) and was simply trying to use an analogy. I guess I will leave it as is. I am not sure what else to do -- it seems that leaving it with no reference would be worse.

Re: Kanban – The Secret Engineer Killer

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to say. Either you rely on clinical studies, which give you pathologically-skewed sample bias, or you use the National Weight Control Registry, which will be skewed to people wanting to report successful weight control.

Thanks. I am not an expert in this area (diet success data) and was simply trying to use an analogy. I guess I will leave it as is. I am not sure what else to do -- it seems that leaving it with no reference would be worse.

Well at least you can join the noble ranks of folk whose writing was tangentially nitpicked in the very first HN comment.
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