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Russia won’t extradite Snowden to US – Kremlin

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Re: Russia won’t extradite Snowden to US – Kremlin

#61

Post by barking »

toyg wrote: post #59
barking wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think Europe is being turned into Afghanistan and what's the relevance of being engaged to an Israeli?

Europeans, and Israeli even more, don't want an extremist Islamic state on their doorstep. Mujhaeddins in Lebanon were enough of a headache already, before their "nationalist" switch; crazies controlling a state as big (and rich) as Syria would mean years of things blowing up from London to Tel Aviv. This is also why the European establishment is quite happy with developments in Egypt. In this sense, the US-French-Br…

I don't think that's fair really.

If a military junta in Egypt suits the West as you suggest then so would Assad in Syria.

I think the west's motivations are complicated but certainly do contain an element of desire to help ordinary Syrians and also a fear the consequences of both acting and failing to act.

Re: Russia won’t extradite Snowden to US – Kremlin

#62

Post by kalms »

barking wrote: post #39
kalms wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in Europe and being engaged to an Israeli, I can definitely relate to that viewpoint.

Do you think Europe is being turned into Afghanistan and what's the relevance of being engaged to an Israeli?

Try living near the Syrian DMZ for a while. It really doesn't get any more relevant than that.

Re: Russia won’t extradite Snowden to US – Kremlin

#63

Post by kalms »

barking wrote: post #61
toyg wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans, and Israeli even more, don't want an extremist Islamic state on their doorstep. Mujhaeddins in Lebanon were enough of a headache already, before their "nationalist" switch; crazies controlling a state as big (and rich) as Syria would mean years of things blowing up from London to Tel Aviv. This is also why the European establishment is quite happy with developments in Egypt. In this sense, the US-French-Br…

I don't think that's fair really. If a military junta in Egypt suits the West as you suggest then so would Assad in Syria. I think the west's motivations are complicated but certainly do contain an element of desire to help ordinary Syrians and also a fear the consequences of both acting and failing to act.

If the alternative is a failed state, and breeding ground for terrorism, or anti-west propaganda, then sure. Assad would be the lesser of two evils from a certain point of view.

If we could get a full-blown democracy, and freedom for the Syrian people, that would of course be even better. But I fear someone else is exploiting their hopes and dreams for a better future to serve their own interests, and any intervention by the west would only fuel that exploitation. But then again seeing civilians getting caught in the crossfire is very painful. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Re: Russia won’t extradite Snowden to US – Kremlin

#64

Post by toyg »

barking wrote: post #61
toyg wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans, and Israeli even more, don't want an extremist Islamic state on their doorstep. Mujhaeddins in Lebanon were enough of a headache already, before their "nationalist" switch; crazies controlling a state as big (and rich) as Syria would mean years of things blowing up from London to Tel Aviv. This is also why the European establishment is quite happy with developments in Egypt. In this sense, the US-French-Br…

I don't think that's fair really. If a military junta in Egypt suits the West as you suggest then so would Assad in Syria. I think the west's motivations are complicated but certainly do contain an element of desire to help ordinary Syrians and also a fear the consequences of both acting and failing to act.

The problem with Assad (like originally with Qadafi) was that he was in the Russian sphere of influence, so he had to be replaced with a friendlier regime. Somehow, "we" thought the Arab Spring narration was "our" chance to achieve that. It's true that this development contains the possibility of a friendlier regime, which would not have been there with the previous status quo; whether this is actually likely though, it's another matter: the current track record for post-WWII regime-changes in the Middle East is dismal to say the least, and it didn't improve much in the last decade.

Call me cynic, but I believe "ordinary Syrians" are the last of "our" problems. Syrian middle-classes, like their Libyan and Egyptian counterparts, are largely compromised with the regime, and would have certainly favoured a peaceful (if lengthy) transition rather than a civil war where they stand to lose everything. Assad was not more brutal than, say, the King of Morocco, who does pretty much the same sort of thing but is in the Western orbit (and in a less strategic area).

Re: Russia won’t extradite Snowden to US – Kremlin

#65

Post by coldtea »

Daishiman wrote: post #21
coldtea wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes. Let's not forget that it's Russia. So? Russia has been a much more malevolent world player than the US.

There's a few hundred million people in Latin America who would disagree with that.

Really? Have you read the history of US/CIA involvment in Latin America? From embracing "death squads" to endorsing Pinochet and tons of other dictators, to war with Panama, to meddling with Venezuela, Columbia, Peru, Brasil, Argentina, Mexico etc politics, heck almost everywhere. Do you know how the very term "Banana Republic" came to be?

Re: Russia won’t extradite Snowden to US – Kremlin

#66

Post by coldtea »

mladenkovacevic wrote: post #52
coldtea wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes. Let's not forget that it's Russia. So? Russia has been a much more malevolent world player than the US.

Do you REALLY want to do a body count from the last few decades?

Yes, oblige us. And compare with the other party too, direct AND indirect deaths (e.g due to the Iraq embargo).

Re: Russia won’t extradite Snowden to US – Kremlin

#67

Post by mistermann »

pc86 wrote: post #57
ck2 wrote: post #22

Well I guess all the bankers who destroyed our economy for a decade can flea to Russia too. Oh wait, they don't have to flea, no-one is pursuing them and they are gearing up for the next round of destruction since no laws were passed to restrict their behavior. We have great priorities and perspective.

It makes me sad that the top-voted comment on a story re: Snowden is a half-baked rant against bankers.

It makes me sad too, because it is true.

Re: Russia won’t extradite Snowden to US – Kremlin

#68

Post by Daishiman »

coldtea wrote: post #65
Daishiman wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a few hundred million people in Latin America who would disagree with that.

Really? Have you read the history of US/CIA involvment in Latin America? From embracing "death squads" to endorsing Pinochet and tons of other dictators, to war with Panama, to meddling with Venezuela, Columbia, Peru, Brasil, Argentina, Mexico etc politics, heck almost everywhere. Do you know how the very term "Banana Republic" came to be?

I think you misunderstood; I'm saying that a substantial, if not most, people in Latin America consider American influence as the worst of the worst.
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