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U.S. cloud firms face backlash from NSA spy programs

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Re: U.S. cloud firms face backlash from NSA spy programs

#81

Post by dragonwriter »

Silhouette wrote: post #80
dragonwriter wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Travel doesn't really change things. The issue is sovereignty; relations between nations remain stuck in a place very close to the Hobbesian state of nature. Insofar as this is a problem to solve, the solution is popularly accountable governments with broader geographic scope than existing nation-states. Note, however, that, there's not much movement in this direction (EU expansion is pretty much it) anywhere in the…

Travel doesn't really change things. The issue is sovereignty I don't know how meaningful "sovereignty" is any more, though. We live in very literally a global community today. People visit each other's countries for work and pleasure, some for a short time, some making a relatively permanent move. Even without physical presence, in the age of the Internet and easy international shipping, everyone's economy depends d…

> The kind of "us and them" mentality we've seen in recent debates about privacy and security is an anachronism, a work of fiction based on romantic notions from a different time and place.

All notions of groups of people are equally works of fiction, whether its everybody-is-"us" or "us and them". As long as you don't have a single government of global scope, you are going to have the consequences of separate governments (and, no, "no governments" doesn't get you out of that problem, its just the limit case of lots of governments, where every government consists of one person.)

> The key difference between political vs. financial influences reigning in that mentality is that the established ruling class in each "us" group can still exert considerable control over the political landscape, but the financial landscape is shaped by reality and has therefore adapted faster to modern life.

That's an amusing story, but it is by no means true. Particularly, it relies on the absolutely ludicrous idea that "the financial landscape" and "the political landscape" are separate things. Particularly, it pretends that the "established ruing class" that has influence over the "political landscape" isn't the same set of wealthy people whose preferences are reflected in the "financial landscape", and that the "political landscape" isn't a product of how the "financial landscape" has "adapted to modern life".

> You can spin your surveys showing that 99.97% of $YOUR_COUNTRY's citizens have no problem with $ABUSE, but if the reality is that the abuse is unpleasant and people don't like it, the money is still going to show it. Ask anyone in the air travel industry who has the option of using various controversial security measures or not.

Do you realize how the nationalization of air travel security in the US (which relieved airlines of responsibility/liability), the adoption of many specific controversial security measures (that involved purchasing goods and services from security firms), and the programs which allow the "right kind" of people to pay and bypass certain security procedures illustrate the falsity of your political vs. financial dichotomy?

Re: U.S. cloud firms face backlash from NSA spy programs

#82

Post by Silhouette »

dragonwriter wrote: post #81
Silhouette wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Travel doesn't really change things. The issue is sovereignty I don't know how meaningful "sovereignty" is any more, though. We live in very literally a global community today. People visit each other's countries for work and pleasure, some for a short time, some making a relatively permanent move. Even without physical presence, in the age of the Internet and easy international shipping, everyone's economy depends d…

> The kind of "us and them" mentality we've seen in recent debates about privacy and security is an anachronism, a work of fiction based on romantic notions from a different time and place. All notions of groups of people are equally works of fiction, whether its everybody-is-"us" or "us and them". As long as you don't have a single government of global scope, you are going to have the consequences of separate govern…

Particularly, it relies on the absolutely ludicrous idea that "the financial landscape" and "the political landscape" are separate things.

They can easily be so in the short term. In the longer term, they tend to get pushed back into sync.

Particularly, it pretends that the "established ruing class" that has influence over the "political landscape" isn't the same set of wealthy people whose preferences are reflected in the "financial landscape"

They aren't, because money locked up in someone's savings and investments isn't driving the economy in the same way that money someone spends in the store or going on holiday is. Unless those few rich people are suddenly going to start flying thousands of times a day, the airlines are going to care more about the numerous you-and-me people choosing whether to spend their money on a flight than they are about one guy who always flies first class but is still only buying one ticket, particularly when, as you point out yourself, they can often conveniently eat their cake and have it if they allow the rich guy to bypass unpleasantness that is imposed on the rest of us anyway.

Do you realize how the nationalization of air travel security in the US ... illustrate the falsity of your political vs. financial dichotomy?

It illustrates how in the short term the political powers always win, sure. But in the long term, significant numbers of people and businesses will favour travelling in more pleasant ways, or storing their data in ways that don't expose them to liability and/or industrial espionage, or otherwise avoiding unwelcome measures where it's possible to do so. The unpleasantness exposes its perpetrators to disruption by more agreeable alternatives, which is why those perpetrating it are always trying to force a lack of choice on consumers via legislation. But that in turn has a political price, and sooner or later it always breaks down too.

Re: U.S. cloud firms face backlash from NSA spy programs

#83

Post by Nrsolis »

bobwaycott wrote: post #76
Nrsolis wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but you are displaying a remarkable level of naiveté about how the world works. I'm not excusing the NSA, but the reason why the USA is exceptional is precisely BECAUSE things like this are an aberration and not accepted as a matter of course. We discuss them as a society and change our government when it gets out of line. Lets not forget that it was a democratically elected government in Europe that start…

> Lets not forget that it was a democratically elected government in Europe that started WWII. And killed millions for nothing more than being born who they were. Systematically, and with the full acquiescence of the favored population. I'm sorry, but you are displaying a remarkable level of naiveté and outright stupidity about how history happened. Hitler was not democratically elected. Hitler had only been a legal…

And who were these Nazis? Were they Germans who acted on behalf of their party and political ideology?

You can argue all you like about how much worse the USA is than Europe but my mother lived in Germany during that time. Complain all you like, but the USA is still far ahead of where Europe is when it comes to civil rights. Ask any survivor of the camps.

The mere fact that the head of the intelligence agencies is going to have to testify under oath in front of the Congress is a sign that the legitimacy of our government is something that is valued and protected.

Re: U.S. cloud firms face backlash from NSA spy programs

#84

Post by bobwaycott »

Nrsolis wrote: post #83
bobwaycott wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lets not forget that it was a democratically elected government in Europe that started WWII. And killed millions for nothing more than being born who they were. Systematically, and with the full acquiescence of the favored population. I'm sorry, but you are displaying a remarkable level of naiveté and outright stupidity about how history happened. Hitler was not democratically elected. Hitler had only been a legal…

And who were these Nazis? Were they Germans who acted on behalf of their party and political ideology? You can argue all you like about how much worse the USA is than Europe but my mother lived in Germany during that time. Complain all you like, but the USA is still far ahead of where Europe is when it comes to civil rights. Ask any survivor of the camps. The mere fact that the head of the intelligence agencies is go…

Appeal to emotion, much? You directly mischaracterized the democratically elected status of the German state that began WWII. It has everything to do with the undemocratic nature of the German state after 1932 that led Europe to WWII.

I never argued in the slightest that the US was in any way, shape, or form worse than Europe. I simply corrected your incorrect understanding of history. If you're going to take a point from history to make a point about contemporary society and events, then at least get the history correct. It's not like you have to read between the redacted lines of history to do so.

Re: U.S. cloud firms face backlash from NSA spy programs

#85

Post by s_q_b »

Andrex wrote: post #46
s_q_b wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need a well-organized lobbying effort to support the interests of United States internet companies. Those survey numbers are actually astounding. The most surprising thing about lobbying and donation efforts is that they aren't really all that expensive. All it takes is a few hundred thousand to a million to swing a tight election. The amounts aren't that large. Maybe a crowdfunding campaign for a Free Internet PA…

> We need a well-organized lobbying effort to support the interests of United States internet companies. Was launched after SOPA: http://internetassociation.org

They're just starting to get serious, but the Internet Association is playing way too much softball, and more importantly they're pushing more for the specific corporate goals of their financiers than the interests of the internet at large.

Re: U.S. cloud firms face backlash from NSA spy programs

#86

Post by Andrex »

s_q_b wrote: post #85
Andrex wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need a well-organized lobbying effort to support the interests of United States internet companies. Was launched after SOPA: http://internetassociation.org

They're just starting to get serious, but the Internet Association is playing way too much softball, and more importantly they're pushing more for the specific corporate goals of their financiers than the interests of the internet at large.

Do you have any specific examples? I haven't been keeping up (I know, I know, I should be.)
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