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Obama Promises Disappear from Web

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Re: Obama Promises Disappear from Web

#141
post #32
post #2

~Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in…

What's the ouch? > Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws 2012: President Signs Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act[1] > Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process. 2013: Whistleblower Edward Snowden is charged by federal prosecutors[2] Has something happened to Snowden that I'm not aware o…

The ouch to me is how much this that's written relates to what's happening today, I just imagine the shame he ought to feel if he reread this today, or someone read this to him...

Obama is great at keeping a straight face(he's a lawyer, after all), but sometimes it makes me wonder how far can he handle since there's so much dirt with all that stuff... I mean, the "The programs are transparent" is a Bush-like statement from 'the great talker', and really, he is, but he's now completely demoralized in many eyes, people from the world rooted for him, I watched the fucking debate and shared a pic of 'debate drinking game' with my friends, we all wanted that seemingly enlighted dude at this position... it's just a very ugly story, even considering that arriving there it was inevitable that he would have to give in to a shit or two or three, but it went overboard, this is a disaster in my 'very-far-away' eyes... what will it be of his name in history? What will this do for future 'enlighted-hopeful' candidates? What about the next black person running for it?

It just makes you go 'ouch'.

Re: Obama Promises Disappear from Web

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but they have been targeted by drones without a trial...

Once. Al Awlaki. I'll refer to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6107997 for the rest.

Once. Al Awlaki.

As far as we know.

Remember, we are now in an age where we do not know what our government is doing. In fact, we're not allowed to know what it's doing, or even why we're not allowed to know.

Smart money shouldn't bet that this is the only actual occurrence.

Re: Obama Promises Disappear from Web

#143
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a juxtaposition consider this, just out today. Halliburton, the US energy services giant, has admitted destroying evidence relating to the 2010 Deepwater Horizon oil rig explosion in the Gulf of Mexico, the worst such disaster in American history. A Justice Department statement released late on Thursday said the company had agreed to plead guilty to criminal conduct that occurred when it was carrying out its own p…

> Obviously money talks! You make it sound like Halliburton just wrote a check to the DOJ to make the problem go away. Big companies don't need to write checks--they have hostages. Put yourself in a DOJ prosecutor's shoes. You've got evidence of illegal conduct. You can't pin it on anyone specific, but you know the company overall engaged in the conduct. What do you do? Do you randomly prosecute the CEO, simply by vi…

You make good points, but I think you overlook the fact that when you're in a climate where anything goes -- a climate that has come to be that way precisely because of a series of complex precedents where it had been unclear where the blame fell and so the real villains often went unpunished, a lack of drastic, disruptive action is probably ultimately much more disastrous than what slaps on the wrist of varying intensities will get you.

This whole thing to me is pretty reminiscent of Wall Street problems. I'm sure there will always be a number of economists who'll defend the situation there, who'll pedantically frame the issues in detailed legal, economic orientations but overlook the more damaging, permanent problems people at large face. Without drastic actions (e.g., handing Jamie Dimon a lengthy prison sentence; fining Halliburton something that'll seriously debilitate (but not bankrupt) their operations, an amount that will make it absolutely clear to management, shareholders and everyone else that strategies of 'play dirty, make big profit, pay relatively small fine' are completely unacceptable), I don't think we're likely to see any meaningfully positive change.

As a society we seem to just accept (and overlook) a high entropy in incarcerations of black teens caught with weed with shaky evidence. Much like how folks are okay with that, I'm pretty much okay if we start seeing a more rash justice come down upon CEOs and upper management, I'm okay seeing shareholders suffer a little, I'm okay with seeing fines in upwards of billions figure, I'm okay with the threat of nationalization looming over companies at detection of naughty behavior. And I don't think this is sloppy anarchist thinking, this is action apparently needed for a larger utilitarian interest (which in my view is generally a reasonable goal).

Okay, that sounded a little extreme, but tell me, how else can we tell them we're not putting up with bullshit anymore? How things are currently going is obviously not working very well.

> Do you randomly prosecute the CEO, simply by virtue of his position, for activity you can't directly pin on him? If you do this, watch every multi-national rush to re-incorporate in Switzerland.

Great. Another one will pop up in its place, who we should reward if they uphold higher ethical standards by doing business with them.

Re: Obama Promises Disappear from Web

#144
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He went against his promises many, many times. And he still was re-elected. Which drives me to the conclusion that his voters are gullible enough to still believe in "we're going to change Washington" - even though the person promising the change is has been in charge for years and the only change was to the worse. There was absolutely nothing to indicate that Obama is not a regular politician that would promise to c…

> he still was re-elected. Which drives me to the conclusion that his voters are gullible enough to still believe in "we're going to change Washington" There were actually many who were disappointed by 2012, and I am not aware of anyone (even Obama) who still discussed or believed that the 2012 campaign was about "changing Washington", as was the 2008 campaign. Even his campaign slogan had changed to reflect this. Th…

Not to mention the striking contrast with W

Really? Because I have trouble finding even a hair's breadth of difference between the two. I'm serious about this: if you eliminate rhetoric and presentation from the equation, and examine only the actions of the two men, I find it very difficult to discern any contrast whatsoever.

Re: Obama Promises Disappear from Web

#145
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously money talks! You make it sound like Halliburton just wrote a check to the DOJ to make the problem go away. Big companies don't need to write checks--they have hostages. Put yourself in a DOJ prosecutor's shoes. You've got evidence of illegal conduct. You can't pin it on anyone specific, but you know the company overall engaged in the conduct. What do you do? Do you randomly prosecute the CEO, simply by vi…

You make good points, but I think you overlook the fact that when you're in a climate where anything goes -- a climate that has come to be that way precisely because of a series of complex precedents where it had been unclear where the blame fell and so the real villains often went unpunished, a lack of drastic, disruptive action is probably ultimately much more disastrous than what slaps on the wrist of varying inte…

> As a society we seem to just accept (and overlook) a high entropy in incarcerations of black teens caught with weed with shaky evidence.

By and large, black teens aren't incarcerated on "shakey evidence." That's the great thing about crimes that affect poor people: they're really easy to prove. The difference between an aggressive deal/outright fraud/honest mistake is difficult to prove. Who knew what? When? What were they thinking? Possession of an uncontrolled substance? Felon in possession of a firearm? Robbery? That stuff is easy to prove.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think it's okay that we imprison so many low-income minorities. But I don't think its the result of "high-entropy" prosecutions based on "shakey evidence." It's the result of astronomical sentences and three-strikes rules for relatively minor crimes (drugs, theft, gang activity) that are very common among low income populations.

> Great. Another one will pop up in its place,

Because we're doing such a great job keeping businesses in America as it is? All that will happen is that the capital will slowly migrate elsewhere.

> But tell me, how else can we tell them we're not putting up with bullshit anymore?

The fact of the matter is that we don't have any choice. My mentor in law school once pointed out to me that in Illinois politics, large companies don't have to make campaign donations to exercise their political clout. All they do is call up a state legislator and say: "I create 300 jobs in your district; this is how high you're going to jump." And the legislators ask: "how high?"

And the people absolutely will not do anything about it, because far and away their #1 political concern is getting a job or keeping their job. And no government official is going to be stupid enough to do something like punish a corporation overly harshly because a simple ad along the lines of "so and so cost such and such county in Illinois 300 jobs!" is a nuclear weapon in the current economy.

Re: Obama Promises Disappear from Web

#146
About this time there occurred a strange incident which hardly anyone was able to understand. One night at about twelve o'clock there was a loud crash in the yard, and the animals rushed out of their stalls. It was a moonlit night. At the foot of the end wall of the big barn, where the Seven Commandments were written, there lay a ladder broken in two pieces. Squealer, temporarily stunned, was sprawling beside it, and near at hand there lay a lantern, a paint-brush, and an overturned pot of white paint. The dogs immediately made a ring round Squealer, and escorted him back to the farmhouse as soon as he was able to walk. None of the animals could form any idea as to what this meant, except old Benjamin, who nodded his muzzle with a knowing air, and seemed to understand, but would say nothing.

-- George Orwell, Animal Farm

Re: Obama Promises Disappear from Web

#147
post #2

~Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in…

This sounds, to me, similar to Mao's Anti-rightist Movement [1]. Basically, Mao encouraged all of the concerned citizens to come forward with their concerns, putatively so that any problems could be corrected. But in fact, Mao used this as an opportunity to identify those that could be viewed as political problems, imprisoning all of those who foolishly believed his rhetoric and who genuinely wanted to help the country. (My wife's uncle spent two decades in prison for this, and his wife was forced to denounce him.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Rightist_Movement

Re: Obama Promises Disappear from Web

#148
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He went against his promises many, many times. And he still was re-elected. Which drives me to the conclusion that his voters are gullible enough to still believe in "we're going to change Washington" - even though the person promising the change is has been in charge for years and the only change was to the worse. There was absolutely nothing to indicate that Obama is not a regular politician that would promise to c…

> he still was re-elected. Which drives me to the conclusion that his voters are gullible enough to still believe in "we're going to change Washington" There were actually many who were disappointed by 2012, and I am not aware of anyone (even Obama) who still discussed or believed that the 2012 campaign was about "changing Washington", as was the 2008 campaign. Even his campaign slogan had changed to reflect this. Th…

>>>> to the fact that he would be the first African-American president,

Exactly. The only thing suggested that he's in any way different is his skin color. Take that away, and he'd be the most regular politician, with nothing to distinguish him from hundreds of others that can artfully read calculated words from a teleprompter. I purposefully did not mention that because I think being of unusual skin color for a president is a personal accomplishment, but I agree that many people voted for him because of that, and this is "our guy" thing. It is sad that this is considered to be qualifying for the "leader of the free world", but that's what we have now. However, it in no way, shape or form - unless you subscribe to a racist notion that skin color determines behavior - suggests that his politics would be in any way different than usual. So the mere fact that you bring this as the indication that suggested his politics would be different is deeply symptomatic.

>>>> From his work as a community organizer

His work as community organizer was largely undistinguished[1]. You see it mentioned a lot as "he was great community organizer" but notice how many times you see it actually reported of what he achieved? I don't say he did nothing - he did some things that were helpful to some people, but nothing in those three years that distinguishes him an any way as being "everything different".

[1] http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/225564/what-did-obama...

>>> to his own experience and background,

His youth experience is largely unremarkable, except for the fact that while he did drugs with gusto when he was young, he still continues the insane war on drugs, and has absolutely no problem with doing it. Other than that, completely unremarkable mix of youthful dabbling in marxism and other trendy lefty things, mixed with occasional support from despicable creatures like Ayers.

As for his background, he's a mixed-race Hawaiian who was educated in Indonesia and Hawaii and was presenting himself as Kenyan when it was needed to sell books, but reverting to being American when he decided to go into politics. What's remarkably different about it that suggests his politics would be radically different? Again, except for his race (for whatever reason, mixed-race politicians seem to be statistically rare) I don't see much.

>>> Not to mention the striking contrast with W.

He's a liberal while Bush was a conservative. So of course his politics is different from Bush's. But his politics in no way different from any left liberal's. And all his objections to Bush's expansion of the government on the wake of 9/11 turned to be purely partisan gamesmanship, just as for many other liberals.

Re: Obama Promises Disappear from Web

#149
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are no secret courts that can issue indictments You are 100% correct. The US government now thinks it's a court all unto itself and is now above the law. It's got to the point where it doesn't even try to hide these indiscretions. Rendition of prisoners to foreign countries by US personnel is now OK as long as no US personnel are involved in the subsequent torture. It’s a well known fact the US government doe…

> Unlawful detention? There is no such thing. We can hold any one for any length of time as long as it is in the national interest. It appears that you are referring to the people the US is holding in Gitmo. Uh, an issue here is the "lawful" part: A claim is that the whole Gitmo thing is part of the US military fighting a war. The Gitmo people are prisoners of war or some such. So, they are not to be handled in the U…

> The Gitmo people are prisoners of war or some such. So, they are not to be handled in the US legal system. So, for how they are being handled, "lawful" in the US legal system makes little or no sense.

Prisoners of war have legal rights too, under treaties to which the US is signatory. The Gitmo prisoners are not receiving those rights either. They're in a legal no-man's-land.

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