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An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

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Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#101
This is a social commentary thinly veiled as feedback on how to improve productivity.

Companies are going to spend the smallest amount of money possible on every employee. If they are paying someone more, it's because that employee would go somewhere else if they paid less.

If you don't like the policy of firing contractors, don't blame Amazon. If you were running a company that was barely breaking even, and there were a law that would make your company spend way more money on employees after they stayed more than a year, you would make the exact same call. Or would you let the company go out of business, and put thousands of people out of work, and screw over your investors, to make some impotent moral stand?

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#102
post #66

This situation is not unusual in the corporate world. Contractors -- many times temporary workers from another country -- are brought in, kept for a fixed number of months, then let go. This is all done without any clue at all as to how it's actually affecting production. I worked at one place that was 70% contract workers. Every year, they would have to leave. No fooling around -- nobody worked a day more than a yea…

> So don't feel bad. It's a disgusting practice that's bad for employees and good for lining corporate profits. You should feel extremely bad, and make lots of noise about it.

Good grief. I wasn't trying to excuse this behavior, I was trying to tell the author not to feel as if Amazon is an exceptional case.

And in case you missed it, this is terrible for productivity.

If you want to make a stink about it, call your representative. Most companies would love to keep great folks on forever, but tax and immigration law won't allow it. There are reasons for these activities that don't involve evil profit-mongering corporate overlords.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#103
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find at Amazon that the close you are to the core business, the better you get treated. The engineers seem to be very well compensated and get benefits and shit because they make the company what it is. I hate to break it to you, but the people who empty the bins are not essential. They should still be treated with the same respect as any human being, but you are absolutely smoking rocks if you think that Amazon ha…

I have no notion that they're essential to the business in any way. But firing people after 11 months just to avoid a deeper employment relationship is a terrible way to treat people.

It's likely government regulation that forces them to choose between letting them go or paying them more.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#105
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not judging the company on a few internet articles, they're judging the company on the immoral hiring practices they use. Even if it's not for the entirety of the company, it is still significant. Obviously they pay tech workers well, they have to in order to get them to work there. They would have a very difficult time contracting tech employees, because there are so many alternative places to work. A perfec…

So you're saying that this company, which is playing by the rules (in that they aren't breaking any laws with their hiring practices), ought to make a move away from the practices that made them a hundred-billion dollar company because you feel that it's immoral. Do you see how that might look somewhat idealistic and, dare I say, foolish? I never supported the 'Occupy' protests mainly because you can't influence a co…

Jormundir didn't say Amazon "ought to" do anything, but his comment seemed to generally support pasbesoin's comment, which was not (only) a fist-shakin' comment, but a rule-changin' one:

> If you don't like it, vote with your dollars (or whatever currency).

But, do you really believe that successful corporations "are motivated first, foremost, and entirely by the almighty dollar?" I know only a handful of people running successful corporations (much smaller than Amazon!), but I believe this to be true of none of them.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#106

Ama-Mart Wal-zon Take your pick. I don't care whether you are "online" or off. Treat your workers like shit -- yes, your workers, you wankers; I don't care what shell employment manoeuvring you use -- and run a business model that takes advantage of, if it's not outright predicated upon, the public dole, and I will be disinclined to send my business your way. Other readers here: If you don't like it, vote with your d…

I sometimes think that tech is worse than banking. Banking is about being "in the club", but if you ask them behind closed doors they know what they're doing. While in tech people seem to actually believe they are righteous. Looking at organizational structures law firms, somewhat paradoxical, seems much better than both tech and banking.

> I sometimes think that tech is worse than banking. Banking is about being "in the club", but if you ask them behind closed doors they know what they're doing. While in tech people seem to actually believe they are righteous.

My initial impression of this description is that it should easier to correct bad behavior in the tech world. For two reasons. If the tech leader becomes convinced they are doing the wrong thing they will want to change to doing the right thing. Also since they are being transparent it is easier for the public to know and understand their policies and apply pressure if they are disliked.

On the other hand it seems like it would be very hard to change bad behavior in the banking world from your description since they are already convinced their actions are non-optimal for society, it is difficult to apply social pressure since they are not transparent and are incentivized to be deceptive or lie.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#107
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun bit of trivia: in a Marxist framework, where the whole 'exploitation' thing came from, it's actually assumed that the worker gets paid a fair market wage. Exploitation doesn't actually rely on someone being paid less than their fair share. I'm not saying that people here are using that term in it's technical way, but people have different opinions on what 'exploited' means, and it can cause friction.

Which is why I'm trying to figure out what, specifically, is being objected to. I'm getting the sense that there is a context beyond the article that I am not familiar with, which is fair enough, I suppose, but I don't see anything in the article to suggest that this employment was in any way unusual or exploitative, at least, not as I understand it.

I think you're looking for points to argue on and prove your superior understanding of economics and fair labor, and in the process brushing away important points and ignoring the insights of peoples' comments.

You've asked for more context, so here's what I have that is not talked about in the article.

Leading up to 2006-2007 and the financial crisis, these entry level jobs were salaried positions with standard benefits. Obviously this sounds expensive for a company, and there's plenty of arguing around whether this is worthwhile, but arguing won't help build the context.

During the financial crisis, as companies scrambled to cut costs as much as possible, a trend began to emerge. Companies realized that rather than give salaries and benefits for these entry level jobs, they could hire new grads and anyone else unable to find a job to be unpaid interns, doing the some level of work -- sometimes more depending on the person and position. I hope you would agree that not paying people for work is taking advantage of them. This is obviously more extreme than the contract practice talked about in the article. After it became clear companies were taken advantage of the job market to get free work out of desperate people, states began making legislation to make unpaid internships illegal. Here in California, it is illegal to not pay an intern if their work contributes to the business in any way.

Now that businesses can no longer get free work, they have reacted by filling these positions with hourly contractors who get no benefits whatsoever, no PTO, no sick days, nothing. Salaries for these contractors are often very low. 25-35k a year based on the hourly work. Salaries aren't being dictated by the value of the work the employee provides the company, but by the difficulty in getting (and really going through the process of finding a new job, possibly relocating, etc.) employment elsewhere.

The contrast between these positions 6-7 years ago and these positions now is why people say (feel) they are exploitative.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#108
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, sure, cleaning staff are contractors/temps. Obviously people like that don't deserve any kind of job security and should be fired annually. /sarcasm

I find at Amazon that the close you are to the core business, the better you get treated. The engineers seem to be very well compensated and get benefits and shit because they make the company what it is. I hate to break it to you, but the people who empty the bins are not essential. They should still be treated with the same respect as any human being, but you are absolutely smoking rocks if you think that Amazon ha…

> The engineers seem to be very well compensated...

As an ex-engineer at Amazon, unless they drastically changed things, their compensation did not seem to be anything special, compared to what one can get at other companies. Their "benefits" were laughable.

Around how much does an SDEII make at this time there?

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#109
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon will realize there's not an unending supply when an unending supply stops showing up.

A quadruple negative! My brain just assploded.

Technically I think it's just two double negatives.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#110
post #92
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employing someone for 11 months so you can avoid paying benefits is disgusting. Just because it's not "unusual" doesn't make it acceptable.

If he was hired on the promise that his contract would only be 11 months, and he knew that up front, I don't see why it's a problem. If he were just randomly fired after 11 months so that they could avoid paying the difference, then I would completely agree with you.

I would be very interested to know just how transparent they were about that. At one extreme I can see some vague handwaving saying 'this is a contract position...you get what that means right? so sign here...' At the other you might get a HR person saying 'yes contract jobs can lead to full-time opportunities' even though that might only happen for one person once a year.
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