An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com • Hacker News Board

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#61

Post by bmelton » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 10:33 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #40

bmelton wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worker was grateful for the opportunity, and enjoyed his time at Amazon, though he felt unmotivated toward the end. He was paid fairly, and presumably commensurately to either his skills, experience, or what he was willing to accept. He entered into the contract freely, was not abused by the employer in any way, and knew full well going in that his employment term would be most likely limited to 12 months. Yet st…

'Freedom' becomes a slippery concept when you're dealing with contracts of adhesion, though. Non-executive workers have little or no negotiating power over their terms of employment, and the greater the asymmetry the less of a free economic choice it is. Obviously he's not that happy about it or he wouldn't have written this screed.

Well, I don't know necessarily that he was unhappy with it, though clearly he thought it was stupid of them to do as it bore on product quality and all that.

Regardless of whether or not he liked it, I'm wondering why the OP can call it "taking advantage of". I just don't see that here, and thought maybe I was missing something, versus my bar just being set at a different height.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#62

Post by mustafakidd » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 10:36 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #33

Kapura wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find at Amazon that the close you are to the core business, the better you get treated. The engineers seem to be very well compensated and get benefits and shit because they make the company what it is. I hate to break it to you, but the people who empty the bins are not essential. They should still be treated with the same respect as any human being, but you are absolutely smoking rocks if you think that Amazon ha…

I have no notion that they're essential to the business in any way. But firing people after 11 months just to avoid a deeper employment relationship is a terrible way to treat people.

I think having people willing to clean up after others and keep the environment tidy and hygienic offers a lot of value.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#63

Post by barista » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 10:37 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #49

> In this terrible economy, I am grateful for the work Seattle's unemployment rate is 4%, which is basically optimal and near what it was before the recession. https://www.google.com/search?q=seattle+unemployment+rate Seattle real-estate has almost completely rebounded. http://www.zillow.com/local-info/WA-Seattle-home-value/r_160... People may not realize it yet, but the recession is over. If Amazon values the work t…

Given the razor thin margins that Amazon runs with, I am not surprised. This is a company that is struggling to make any money even after people bought hundreds of Billions of dollars worth of stuff from them. They are bound to cut corners to stay alive.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#64

Post by bmelton » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 10:40 PM UTC

Jormundir wrote: post #56

bmelton wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worker was grateful for the opportunity, and enjoyed his time at Amazon, though he felt unmotivated toward the end. He was paid fairly, and presumably commensurately to either his skills, experience, or what he was willing to accept. He entered into the contract freely, was not abused by the employer in any way, and knew full well going in that his employment term would be most likely limited to 12 months. Yet st…

You don't know what taken advantage of means do you? These days any given new graduate who didn't attend an ivy league is in a situation where it is extremely difficult to get a job. The alternative to working as a contractor at Amazon is not working at all. This is the situation these contractors are in. When the alternative is being in extreme debt / homeless, a choice cannot be made freely. This is the situation t…

> You don't know what taken advantage of means do you?

Yes, I do, and I'd appreciate you not starting off posts being invective in the future. I'd downvote you for that if I could, even though I acknowledge you make an otherwise neutral point.

I'm not suggesting that Amazon is being good or evil, but I don't see any advantage having been taken. As Nostromo stated in a higher-voted thread, the unemployment rate in Seattle is currently at 4%, which is pretty good.

> The alternative to working as a contractor at Amazon is not working at all.

I don't see that having been suggested in the article at all. Regardless, some temporary work on a real product right after college seems like exactly the kind of thing I wish had been around when I was younger.

What I'm not seeing is that there was anything exploitative going on. Amazon paid a fair market wage, or at least I didn't see anything in the article to suggest he was making Walmart level wages. I don't see that the working conditions were harsh, or otherwise problematic beyond the normal level of office politics.

If these principles weaken the company, then I again don't see how that is taking advantage of the article's author.

I'm not suggesting that these are amazing working conditions, or that it's doing Amazon any favors, but at the same time, I don't see that anybody was taken advantage of either.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#65

Post by grecy » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 10:43 PM UTC

bmelton wrote: post #31

pasbesoin wrote: post #8

Ama-Mart Wal-zon Take your pick. I don't care whether you are "online" or off. Treat your workers like shit -- yes, your workers, you wankers; I don't care what shell employment manoeuvring you use -- and run a business model that takes advantage of, if it's not outright predicated upon, the public dole, and I will be disinclined to send my business your way. Other readers here: If you don't like it, vote with your d…

The worker was grateful for the opportunity, and enjoyed his time at Amazon, though he felt unmotivated toward the end. He was paid fairly, and presumably commensurately to either his skills, experience, or what he was willing to accept. He entered into the contract freely, was not abused by the employer in any way, and knew full well going in that his employment term would be most likely limited to 12 months. Yet st…

> The worker was grateful for the opportunity

Uh-huh. And if I give you no food for a week then throw you a dog bone you'll be grateful for that too.

What a disgusting way to behave.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#66

Post by grecy » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 10:45 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #52

This situation is not unusual in the corporate world. Contractors -- many times temporary workers from another country -- are brought in, kept for a fixed number of months, then let go. This is all done without any clue at all as to how it's actually affecting production. I worked at one place that was 70% contract workers. Every year, they would have to leave. No fooling around -- nobody worked a day more than a yea…

> So don't feel bad.

It's a disgusting practice that's bad for employees and good for lining corporate profits.

You should feel extremely bad, and make lots of noise about it.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#67

Post by steveklabnik » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 10:47 PM UTC

rogerbinns wrote: post #48

pasbesoin wrote: post #8

Ama-Mart Wal-zon Take your pick. I don't care whether you are "online" or off. Treat your workers like shit -- yes, your workers, you wankers; I don't care what shell employment manoeuvring you use -- and run a business model that takes advantage of, if it's not outright predicated upon, the public dole, and I will be disinclined to send my business your way. Other readers here: If you don't like it, vote with your d…

If you believe the workers are taken advantage of, could be managed in a different way that increases productivity, or providing far more value than they are paid, then you have an opportunity to start a business and profit handsomely at the expense of those "wankers". For some reason all the people making those observations never seem to start those businesses to show the "bad" guys up.

Econ 101 is simple and all, but in the real world the barriers to entry are more complex. I can see I now:

"Hey Mr. VC, do I got a pitch for you! We're going to compete directly with Amazon, but pay our people more! Are you in?"

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#68

Post by bowlofpetunias » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 10:49 PM UTC

bmelton wrote: post #31

pasbesoin wrote: post #8

Ama-Mart Wal-zon Take your pick. I don't care whether you are "online" or off. Treat your workers like shit -- yes, your workers, you wankers; I don't care what shell employment manoeuvring you use -- and run a business model that takes advantage of, if it's not outright predicated upon, the public dole, and I will be disinclined to send my business your way. Other readers here: If you don't like it, vote with your d…

The worker was grateful for the opportunity, and enjoyed his time at Amazon, though he felt unmotivated toward the end. He was paid fairly, and presumably commensurately to either his skills, experience, or what he was willing to accept. He entered into the contract freely, was not abused by the employer in any way, and knew full well going in that his employment term would be most likely limited to 12 months. Yet st…

Social, cultural and political context.

The entire concept in which Amazon use temporary contract workers is seen as an exploitative abuse of the power by the employer the majority of societies outside the US.

The use of the term "wankers" leads me to believe that pasbesoin is not American, which means there's a pretty big chances he's used to different employer - employee relations and probably stricter laws limiting this kind of thing.

Personally, I don't consider this kind of thing to be "employment". It offers neither the security of being an employee, nor the freedom of being fully self-employed.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#69

Post by steveklabnik » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 10:50 PM UTC

bmelton wrote: post #64

Jormundir wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't know what taken advantage of means do you? These days any given new graduate who didn't attend an ivy league is in a situation where it is extremely difficult to get a job. The alternative to working as a contractor at Amazon is not working at all. This is the situation these contractors are in. When the alternative is being in extreme debt / homeless, a choice cannot be made freely. This is the situation t…

> You don't know what taken advantage of means do you? Yes, I do, and I'd appreciate you not starting off posts being invective in the future. I'd downvote you for that if I could, even though I acknowledge you make an otherwise neutral point. I'm not suggesting that Amazon is being good or evil, but I don't see any advantage having been taken. As Nostromo stated in a higher-voted thread, the unemployment rate in Sea…

Fun bit of trivia: in a Marxist framework, where the whole 'exploitation' thing came from, it's actually assumed that the worker gets paid a fair market wage. Exploitation doesn't actually rely on someone being paid less than their fair share.

I'm not saying that people here are using that term in it's technical way, but people have different opinions on what 'exploited' means, and it can cause friction.

Re: An open letter to Jeff Bezos: A contract worker’s take on Amazon.com

#70

Post by bmelton » Thu, Jul 25, 2013, 10:51 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #65

bmelton wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worker was grateful for the opportunity, and enjoyed his time at Amazon, though he felt unmotivated toward the end. He was paid fairly, and presumably commensurately to either his skills, experience, or what he was willing to accept. He entered into the contract freely, was not abused by the employer in any way, and knew full well going in that his employment term would be most likely limited to 12 months. Yet st…

> The worker was grateful for the opportunity Uh-huh. And if I give you no food for a week then throw you a dog bone you'll be grateful for that too. What a disgusting way to behave.

Again, there's been nothing to suggest that these were sub-par working conditions. Except for the length of the engagement, which is fairly normal, I don't see anything even remotely unusual about this working arrangement.