Live data from Hacker News

The slippery slope

90percentofeverything.com

51–60 of 137 posts

Re: The slippery slope

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banks seem to be doing ok.

For now. It's only a matter of time before a startup or two breaks that industry down just like they have for many others.

How long until a Silicon Valley startup cracks the hard problem of low-margin heroin smuggling?

Re: The slippery slope

#52
I'm going to nitpick a bit here, mostly because it's entertaining to play devil's advocate on a topic that's always met with such one-sided responses on HN (in this case: dark patterns).

My question is: Why should a company make it easy for people to do exactly what it doesn't want them to do?

Sure, outright trickery and lies are almost unarguably immoral. And the author definitely identifies many examples of that. But there are other instances where I just can't agree with classification of the UX as a dark pattern.

Let's take The Ladders, for example. In order to cancel, you have to fill out a form with a few required fields. What a shady, underhanded, and downright spiteful trick! Or is it? Most cancellation forms online will take you through an intermediary confirmation step, anyway. What's so evil about requiring a small form to be filled out? The questions are directly relevant to the act of canceling, and if you truly don't give a shit, you can fill it in with gibberish. Even if you give honest answers, you could be done with this form in literally 5 seconds. It almost certainly took you longer to fire up your browser and navigate to their site, anyway.

My point is: The company is not attempting to trick you or obfuscate the truth. They know that the presence of the form will likely lower their cancellation rates by a marginal amount, yes, but there's nothing immoral about lowering cancellation rates. And the form isn't nearly long enough to be considered difficult or unreasonable, so it's not like they're attempting to frustrate people into staying. In the end, it convinces some people to change their minds, but nobody gets hurt.

Compare that to, say, The Ladder's decision to auto-renew monthly subscriptions while hiding that fact at the bottom of the page in small gray font. Or to email subscriptions with no unsubscribe link. Or to burying opt-out checkboxes within gigantic forms. In these cases, companies are outright tricking people.

Re: The slippery slope

#53
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For now. It's only a matter of time before a startup or two breaks that industry down just like they have for many others.

I'm a happy customer of both Simple.com and USAA. Both are very customer focused banks. The industry is being broken down, just really really slowly.

I think there's an analogous problem with encryption and GPG: like with credit unions (USAA in particular) there's an easy solution out there, but relatively few people use it.

Re: The slippery slope

#54
post #52

I'm going to nitpick a bit here, mostly because it's entertaining to play devil's advocate on a topic that's always met with such one-sided responses on HN (in this case: dark patterns). My question is: Why should a company make it easy for people to do exactly what it doesn't want them to do? Sure, outright trickery and lies are almost unarguably immoral. And the author definitely identifies many examples of that. B…

To give an example: In line with Google's mission statement of "Don't be evil", I figure that it could extend to "Don't be annoying".

> My question is: Why should a company make it easy for people to do exactly what it doesn't want them to do?

Because its just plain annoying to users. Running a business and designing your application / system to trick people into behaving in a certain way is one thing, being transparent is another.

I think users these days are becoming a lot more educated and wiser to these techniques, as a result their loyalty is beginning to side with companies that offer a more honest level of transparency.

Re: The slippery slope

#55
post #52

I'm going to nitpick a bit here, mostly because it's entertaining to play devil's advocate on a topic that's always met with such one-sided responses on HN (in this case: dark patterns). My question is: Why should a company make it easy for people to do exactly what it doesn't want them to do? Sure, outright trickery and lies are almost unarguably immoral. And the author definitely identifies many examples of that. B…

Acting shady hurts your brand.

Harry Brignull(the author) discusses this in a talk[1] that I found on the dark patterns website(I checked out the website after loving the article).

He makes the argument that sure, many of these tactics might increase your conversion rates or make you some money, at least in the short run. But it also causes you to come off as seedy, to come off as a back alley discount store instead of as a premium brand.

He points out that if you're doing this and you're aware of that and you're ok with it, that's one thing. But plenty of sites might not have realized what they're doing and how it comes off.

I know I personally resent it when sites leave boxes like "sign up for our newsletter" checked or when they have fake download box adds. Making it hard for me to do what I want to do, no matter how you do it, bothers me. It feels like you're the adversary of the site, not a customer or friend.

I believe he talks about it around 12 minutes in but the entire presentation is easily worth watching. He has another one aimed at designers that I plan on watching as soon as I find my headphones(the sound is too low for me to hear it on my MBP).

http://www.90percentofeverything.com/2010/12/17/dark-pattern...

Re: The slippery slope

#56

Long, but worth reading — a great overview of shady techniques that many startups may feel are worth employing to bump their growth stats.

It was even more interesting to me as a set of 'canaries in a coal mine'. If you are working for a company and start to see many, or one, of these patterns, it should serve as awake up call. Move on or don't, but be aware of the corporate behavior.

Re: The slippery slope

#57
post #52

I'm going to nitpick a bit here, mostly because it's entertaining to play devil's advocate on a topic that's always met with such one-sided responses on HN (in this case: dark patterns). My question is: Why should a company make it easy for people to do exactly what it doesn't want them to do? Sure, outright trickery and lies are almost unarguably immoral. And the author definitely identifies many examples of that. B…

He explained this at the end. Companies that do this succeed in the short term, but in the long run they fail.

Re: The slippery slope

#58
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a happy customer of both Simple.com and USAA. Both are very customer focused banks. The industry is being broken down, just really really slowly.

Just curious, what benefits do you get from simple.com that USAA does not provide? I looked at it in the beginning but it didn't seem to add anything, perhaps that's changed.

That's a great question. I like the experience of simple. I get push notifications when I swipe my card. I enjoy the "Safe to spend" amount that takes into account my goals. Photo check deposit is great too. It's early days for them, but I like backing that horse.

USAA is a great company. They give you ATM fee reimbursements which is a huge benefit over simple. I feel guilty getting them since they have to eat that cost. In dealing with them, they're always pleasant and friendly, but they have policies like photo check deposit is only available if you're ex-military.

Hope that helps!

Re: The slippery slope

#59
post #30

It's funny. I'm on the phone trying to reach a student loan representative right now. I keep pressing 1 for English, 4 for a student loan representative, 1 again for the type of loan, then I'm back to pressing 4 for a loan representative. It's an infinite loop! I try hitting 0 for an operator but then I'm prompted to give a 4 digit extension for the party I want to reach.

It could be that the pool of operators for your type of loan is empty (i.e. they're all offline or engaged), and the app is set to automatically let you try again with some other department. Just going with Occam here, but I've seen a couple of callcentre call-routing systems and the potential for misconfiguration is fairly high.

Hanlon, actually. Just for the sake of terminology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor . It keeps me sane.

Re: The slippery slope

#60
post #52

I'm going to nitpick a bit here, mostly because it's entertaining to play devil's advocate on a topic that's always met with such one-sided responses on HN (in this case: dark patterns). My question is: Why should a company make it easy for people to do exactly what it doesn't want them to do? Sure, outright trickery and lies are almost unarguably immoral. And the author definitely identifies many examples of that. B…

yes, all bad practices... I think of this like when you buy something at the store at the advertised price and it comes up at a different price at the register (almost always higher)... this is wrong.
Post reply on HN