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Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

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Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#181

Post by rayiner »

oleganza wrote: post #143
positr0n wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear Somalia is nice this time of year.

So violence in Somalia is not acceptable to you, but allowing your government a lot of violence is acceptable? If people in Somalia cannot find out a way to avoid violence it does not mean it's not possible in principle, or that government is somehow "good".

Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, etc.

I love white people who are satiated by the blessings of good government that they can talk, without irony, about how they don't need government. I don't meet many anarchists from my part of the world...

The state of human nature is lawlessness and violence. The only thing keeping society from collapsing into the hell that people in those countries live with is the collective force of the majority asserted through government.

Anarchy sounds dandy until a bunch of people realize that in the absence of the overwhelming power of the state, all it takes is a gang of a dozen people to terrorize their neighbors, taking from them whatever they want. Morality doesn't prevent that. The only thing that prevents that is a bigger group of men, with guns. At first those groups of men were warlords, who eventually became kings, and ultimately we decided we should be able to vote for them. History of civilization in a nutshell.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#182

Post by Hario »

triplepoint217 wrote: post #93
sinak wrote: post #31

Just a quick note to add that this was built over the course of 5 hours by four developers as part of http://taskforce.is , which was pretty much assembled here on Hacker News. Please take a few minutes to call. It's amazing how low conversion rates are on calling campaigns like this one - a factor of 100 lower than email asks - but this is really critical. We only have one day to make this happen. If you're interest…

I just called. A feature that would be really nice: A way for me to give them my email address and zip code and then get an email when vote results are posted with how my Representative voted.

That's a really good idea.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#183

Post by dclowd9901 »

rayiner wrote: post #176
LoganCale wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, the Constitution itself doesn't say that only U.S. citizens in U.S. territory enjoy its protections. And the Declaration of Independence (which is not legally binding the way the Constitution is, but should give an idea of the mindset of the time) states all men are created equal. Second, if we believe ideologically that privacy is a human right that should be protected, it is hypocritical to then say "Oh, but…

> First, the Constitution itself doesn't say that only U.S. citizens in U.S. territory enjoy its protections. If the Constitution said: "people in France owe us taxes" would that be valid and binding? Of course not. American law cannot impose obligations on the French, and reciprocally, American law cannot give rights to the French. The Constitution is law, and American law extends to American soil and American citiz…

Just because it isn't recognized or judicial law doesn't mean it's meaningless. The statement that "all men are created equal" is a dictum and a recognition that despite the freedoms a person is afforded by their place of residence, the United States recognizes their right to their freedom. This has been the foundation of American foreign policy (with hit-or-miss adherence to its message).

Yes, the US does not have jurisprudence over French law, but if the French were to become a violent, repressive dictatorship, we've stated our moral obligations, which are aligned with aiding the French people.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#184

Post by rayiner »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #183
rayiner wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, the Constitution itself doesn't say that only U.S. citizens in U.S. territory enjoy its protections. If the Constitution said: "people in France owe us taxes" would that be valid and binding? Of course not. American law cannot impose obligations on the French, and reciprocally, American law cannot give rights to the French. The Constitution is law, and American law extends to American soil and American citiz…

Just because it isn't recognized or judicial law doesn't mean it's meaningless. The statement that "all men are created equal" is a dictum and a recognition that despite the freedoms a person is afforded by their place of residence, the United States recognizes their right to their freedom. This has been the foundation of American foreign policy (with hit-or-miss adherence to its message). Yes, the US does not have j…

France became a violent, repressive dictatorship very soon after U.S. independence, in the aftermath of the French Revolution, and we did nothing.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#185

Post by harryh »

rayiner wrote: post #181
oleganza wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So violence in Somalia is not acceptable to you, but allowing your government a lot of violence is acceptable? If people in Somalia cannot find out a way to avoid violence it does not mean it's not possible in principle, or that government is somehow "good".

Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, etc. I love white people who are satiated by the blessings of good government that they can talk, without irony, about how they don't need government. I don't meet many anarchists from my part of the world... The state of human nature is lawlessness and violence. The only thing keeping society from collapsing into the hell that people in those countries live with is the collective force of t…

I saw this comic on the internet once.

It shows this skinny nerd getting beat up by a tattooed thug. With a caption that says something like "This is your anarchist utopia: getting beat up like you were in middle school over and over and over again."

It was awesome (and phrased in a slightly more clever way than I can remember). I really wish I could find it again, but I can't seem too even after trying many times.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#186

Post by joering2 »

thomaslangston wrote: post #142
meepmorp wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Persons who are not US citizens who are not on US territory aren't given protections under our constitution. What's the reasoning behind this? Surveillance serves a national interest for the US, and while there ought to be limitations for domestic surveillance, I don't see why those ought to exist for foreigners in other countries.

There is an ethical argument that the morality of a government's actions doesn't change because of the nationality of those actions' benefactors or victims. Therefore if it isn't moral to perform dragnet surveillance on the U.S. population, then it isn't moral to do so on foreign populations either. There is another ethical argument that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us (i.e. the Golden Rule)…

> then it isn't moral to do so on foreign populations either.

Since when was the last time US government or its Military branch thought or cared about what's moral and what's not?

Long story short: the major reason why they can get away with drones flying over foreign soil with lethal weapon is because american media barely reports on it. My hunch is that there are deals done behind closed doors; deals maybe NOT purely illegal but unethical for sure. For example: do not report on drone strikes and Lockheed Martin will advertise their jet fighters in your newspaper for $10MM per year. It happened before (hint: that advertise has no reason to exist; you won't and you can't just pick up your phone and call Lockheed to order a jetfighter yourself).

I am sure some small newspaper somewhere is alarming public on drones killing innocent people on foreign soil, but again, they are "too small to succeed".

And further: the only reason you don't have droned killing americans on american soil is the eventual unleash of bashing that media would do. Agai, nothing to do with morality. While far away they can get away with it, however here at home it would be hard to stop the news.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#187

Post by joyeuse6701 »

cinquemb wrote: post #116
joyeuse6701 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah bro they target civilians and blow them up en masse. If you had to pick the lesser of two evils, the answer is pretty clear I think.

I guess 100+ plus drone strikes y/y with civillian casualties isn't en masse? Wasn't there a drone strike that killed over a hundred women and children at a school in pakistan? And lets not forget Falujah. It was pretty much turned into Depleted Urainium wasteland... and theres a WHO report on that. Sounds like those evils are brothers...

Suppose a Drone killed 3000 civilians with the intention of killing civilians (like Dresden or Tokyo bombings of WWII) then I'd say yeah, they're siblings but: Nah, civilians are collateral damage for drones, the goal was not to kill as many of them as possible and terrorize them. It was to eliminate particular individuals, so no it's not en masse.

If we take your 100 women and children (heh, nice) and say they were without a doubt killed by a drone and were killed intentionally as a target by the drones I would say: You're still off by an order of cardinality in comparison. So that's a bad comparison too.

Falujah, where there was a battle and there were actual enemy combatants in a stronghold city and you're complaining about the depleted uranium after the fact? Sure you could remove context to everything and you'll get exactly what you're saying: Drivel.

A WHO report? So? That assertion alone is supposed to do what, reinforce how deplorable Falujah is on account of the weapons used?

Tell ya what when you're in charge of arming your soldiers of your nation and someone says: "you can use depleted uranium to penetrate the armor of your enemies but it'll have negative effect on the environment, or you can use just lead with negligible armor piercing and minimal comparative environmental effect." You can pick the environmental choice and tell the dead parents and the dying soldiers you're responsible for that you didn't want to pick armor piercing rounds because you were trying to protect the future flora and fauna of a foreign land you don't have sovereignty over. Or you could tell them that you did everything in your power to do your job and service to the nation and it's people in arming the soldiers under your command and that the integrity of the environment of a city in Iraq was secondary to your concern over American lives.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#188

Post by harryh »

oleganza wrote: post #169
mpyne wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My government has not once engaged in violence to me or my family. The one possible exception is my sister (I wasn't there when she was arrested), but you steal $10,000 worth of silver from an in-law to feed your drug habit and I can't say I'd be surprised that the government gets involved. P.S. On that note, how does anarchy account for thieves?

Did you pay taxes lately? Have you ever been disappointed by what government does with your taxes? Why haven't you tried to withhold your participation by not paying taxes? E.g. if you dislike the war in Iraq, what stopped you from not paying a part of your taxes? Also, even if you are hard-core fan of taxation, your neighbour may be not. If he also disagrees with the gov on the same matter as you, but decides to wit…

The tremendous success of governments over the past several thousand years, as well as the even greater success of democratic governments over the past several hundred doesn't count as evidence in their favor?

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#189

Post by rayiner »

harryh wrote: post #185
rayiner wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, etc. I love white people who are satiated by the blessings of good government that they can talk, without irony, about how they don't need government. I don't meet many anarchists from my part of the world... The state of human nature is lawlessness and violence. The only thing keeping society from collapsing into the hell that people in those countries live with is the collective force of t…

I saw this comic on the internet once. It shows this skinny nerd getting beat up by a tattooed thug. With a caption that says something like "This is your anarchist utopia: getting beat up like you were in middle school over and over and over again." It was awesome (and phrased in a slightly more clever way than I can remember). I really wish I could find it again, but I can't seem too even after trying many times.

Maybe I'm sensitive about it. When I was young, in Bangladesh, we had a house in the capital city. It was surrounded by a concrete wall with broken glass on top and had an iron gate. We once had a bus full of robbers try to break down the gate. They harassed us for 30-40 minutes before the police finally came (apparently this story could have also taken place in Detroit).

I'm as skeptical of the Po Po as the next guy, but the alternative isn't sunshine and rainbows.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#190

Post by declan »

gpcz wrote: post #14
Yuioup wrote: post #6

I have a question. It's pretty much a safe bet that the NSA runs Open Source Software. You can't do anything on the internet these days without using FLOSS. I'm not an expert in software licenses but can't GNU, Linus, Mozilla and all other Open Source contributers revoke the NSA's license to use their software? Surely Open Source licenses, just like any other license, can be revoked?

Clause 6 of the Open Source Definition ( http://opensource.org/osd-annotated ) states that open source software licenses cannot discriminate against fields of endeavor. That is, you can't state in your license that an abortion clinic / anti-abortion activists can't use the software and still call it open source.

Right. Because "open source" no longer fits, you'd need a new name for software released under the anti-surveillance license. "Freedom Software" instead of "Free Software" has a nice ring to it. :)
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