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Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

defundthensa.com

171–180 of 232 posts

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#171
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So violence in Somalia is not acceptable to you, but allowing your government a lot of violence is acceptable? If people in Somalia cannot find out a way to avoid violence it does not mean it's not possible in principle, or that government is somehow "good".

My government has not once engaged in violence to me or my family. The one possible exception is my sister (I wasn't there when she was arrested), but you steal $10,000 worth of silver from an in-law to feed your drug habit and I can't say I'd be surprised that the government gets involved. P.S. On that note, how does anarchy account for thieves?

> My government has not once engaged in violence to me or my family.

What happens if you don't pay taxes?

The government will get violent.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#172
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government != society. By not allowing any excuse for violence (including self-defence) and seeking voluntary arrangement with people around you to protect yourselves you are not isolating yourself. On contrary, you solve the social problem socially , not brutally like today with government.

Wait, you intend to take away my right to defend myself too? Fuck that, me being defenseless ended circa high school. Never again.

You don't have any rights. These are just unproven words or bribes given to you by the people with power.

Of course, you'd have to protect yourself when attacked, no question about it. But it's not a moral choice, it's an extreme case where you don't have any choice. So I'm not going to prove any libertarian rights platform based on right to self-defense. Without government, rights will appear in a form of voluntary agreement in parts of society on what's acceptable and what's not. E.g. if in Texas it's acceptable to kill trespassers without asking question, then so be it. I don't like this rule, so I'd just avoid being in Texas. But neither my opinion, nor cowboy's opinion create any globally applicable rights. I just don't want some mafia to take over people living in Texas and dictate them what they can or cannot do. They'd better decide themselves and smoothly adjust as new people arrive or get born there.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#173
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me and my friends will never stay in your way if you want to fund a firefighter or NSA, or local McDonalds. It's your choice, your property. Even if we don't like your lifestyle or disagree with your ideas. Will you give me the same respect to disagree with you and act upon my beliefs? Since I don't force you to pay for what I think is good, will you please allow me not to participate in things I don't approve of? If…

As long as you don't drink water from public infrastructure, use public Wi-Fi, get power from public lines, drive on public roads, get healthcare at public hospitals, ever call the public 911 line no matter how scary that burglar is, etc. etc. then sure dude, go nuts.

You have a logical fallacy right there.

First, see my replies to you on why government == violence.

Now imagine if I extract some money from you ("for the children") and provide you with some "service". Service could even be valuable to you. But if at some point you get disappointed at my actions and decide to protect yourself from my aggression, I'd educate your children that your family is using my service and must shut up and pay for it. How'd you like it when your child will call the cops because daddy is against schools and public wifi? Government is nothing different, just on a larger scale.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#174
post #128
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still feel powerless, but of course, that's because I'm not a US citizen (though my children are, but they cannot yet speak), while my communications are also spied on by the NSA. I hope you'll be able to make a difference. Good luck on this.

Actually you aren't powerless. You phone still works and you can call a senator. I don't know the legal ramifications of neglecting to mention that you aren't a member of the voting citizenry.

I don't know if I'm okay with non-Americans trying to interfere with our political process. They're certainly entitled to call, I suppose, but I hope our senators ignore them.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#175
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that those are all good ways to take action, but I disagree with you that this bill is not worth trying as well. This doesn't target specific NSA programs by name, but amends Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act to forbid its use to collect records for people who are not subject to an investigation under that same Section. It's far from an end to domestic surveillance, but it's a significant limitation on…

Amending 215 isn't much good with FISA 702 collection methods still in place, so yes, this bill is useless. You need new elected representatives because thus far no representative in any election in any district has ever lost an election over this surveillance. Unless and until that happens, the massive forces arrayed against you will sway the votes every time. This movement lacks support, funding, vision, and credib…

215 and 702 do different things. It is misleading to say that limiting 215 is pointless because 702 is still in place. Yes, both should be limited. But limiting one as a start is better than limiting nothing.

The NSA director has called a classified emergency briefing for Congress to lobby against them voting on this bill, so they seem more troubled by it passing than you do. Which makes me wonder what your true intent is in encouraging people to not support this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/23/keith-alexander-jus...

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Persons who are not US citizens who are not on US territory aren't given protections under our constitution. What's the reasoning behind this? Surveillance serves a national interest for the US, and while there ought to be limitations for domestic surveillance, I don't see why those ought to exist for foreigners in other countries.

First, the Constitution itself doesn't say that only U.S. citizens in U.S. territory enjoy its protections. And the Declaration of Independence (which is not legally binding the way the Constitution is, but should give an idea of the mindset of the time) states all men are created equal. Second, if we believe ideologically that privacy is a human right that should be protected, it is hypocritical to then say "Oh, but…

> First, the Constitution itself doesn't say that only U.S. citizens in U.S. territory enjoy its protections.

If the Constitution said: "people in France owe us taxes" would that be valid and binding? Of course not. American law cannot impose obligations on the French, and reciprocally, American law cannot give rights to the French. The Constitution is law, and American law extends to American soil and American citizens abroad. That's the nature of law.

> And the Declaration of Independence (which is not legally binding the way the Constitution is, but should give an idea of the mindset of the time) states all men are created equal.

To get a full idea of the "mindset of the time" the Declaration of Independence used flowery language like "all men are created equal" but the Constitution enshrined slavery into law for another generation and set up a system of government where only white, landowning males could vote. If the founders didn't think that blacks or women born on U.S. soil had rights under the Constitution, why on earth would you assume they thought anyone not born on U.S. soil would have rights?

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#177
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Persons who are not US citizens who are not on US territory aren't given protections under our constitution. What's the reasoning behind this? Surveillance serves a national interest for the US, and while there ought to be limitations for domestic surveillance, I don't see why those ought to exist for foreigners in other countries.

Countries are just arbitrary divisions. Just because you are born in a certain geographic region doesn't mean you are the property of the government of that region. Every person is a human being with inherent rights and freedoms. You think we are all equal, but Americans are just more equal than others? Dividing people is counter productive and antiquated. We are all unified as citizens of Earth and denizens of the i…

> Countries are just arbitrary divisions.

No, they're not. People in China will not fight and die to defend your freedom, but people in Nebraska will.

There is a real world outside the internet, and in that real world countries and national boundaries are tremendously important.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be banning surveillance of anyone not under active investigation, not simply domestically.

Why? Persons who are not US citizens who are not on US territory aren't given protections under our constitution. What's the reasoning behind this? Surveillance serves a national interest for the US, and while there ought to be limitations for domestic surveillance, I don't see why those ought to exist for foreigners in other countries.

Each country expects other governments to spy on them, but when you start requiring American companies to help the intelligence agencies do their jobs, it leaves little reason for anyone to do business with American companies.

Also, as Obama has stated (intensely dislike many of his policies, but on this occasion he's right), it's a given that espionage is conducted in order to discover political/military secrets, but that's completely different from conducting industrial espionage against commercial organizations, or individual espionage against private citizens. I know that he personally is a hypocrite for saying this while PRISM exists, but that doesn't mean that the statement itself was wrong.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Persons who are not US citizens who are not on US territory aren't given protections under our constitution. What's the reasoning behind this? Surveillance serves a national interest for the US, and while there ought to be limitations for domestic surveillance, I don't see why those ought to exist for foreigners in other countries.

Well, does that mean that every other country in the world is well within its rights to spy on every US citizen? I am sure no other country's constitution stipulates protections for US citizens either.

They are and many do.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#180
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amending 215 isn't much good with FISA 702 collection methods still in place, so yes, this bill is useless. You need new elected representatives because thus far no representative in any election in any district has ever lost an election over this surveillance. Unless and until that happens, the massive forces arrayed against you will sway the votes every time. This movement lacks support, funding, vision, and credib…

215 and 702 do different things. It is misleading to say that limiting 215 is pointless because 702 is still in place. Yes, both should be limited. But limiting one as a start is better than limiting nothing. The NSA director has called a classified emergency briefing for Congress to lobby against them voting on this bill, so they seem more troubled by it passing than you do. Which makes me wonder what your true inte…

Think through the problem.

1. FISA Court precedent has already created a rather broad exception to the Fourth Amendment. Even without 215 most domestic surveillance could be brought under other statutory authority. The end-run around the Fourth is the hard part, not the statutory grant of permission.

2. The NSA Director would never allow any bill limiting his agency's powers to be considered in any way without protesting.

3. If you repeal that portion of the Patriot Act, which again you won't because you haven't done the necessary groundwork, most of the gathering done under 215 could be done under 702 given the "two to three hops" justification.

4. The NSA and the FISA court don't consider mere interception of communication to meet the definition of "collection," meaning gathering all of the nation's communications neither requires statutory approval nor invokes Constitutional scrutiny.

You're treating your adversary as if it's passive, and can't adapt other legal tools to serve this purpose. Loss of this one provision is meaningless in the scope of the agency's powers.

Finally, you're ignoring the most crucial part of the counterargument. Public opprobrium is a scarce resource that must be marshaled and treated as such. Every action that you take must be calculated to make maximum use of that resource, or you're simply squandering it.

I have no dog in this fight. I see the advantages and disadvantages of both positions. Seeing either side employ sub-optimal tactics is what bothers me.

If you're going to take on the best funded, most powerful, and most covert organization in the history of the planet, you better come with more firepower than this.

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