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Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

defundthensa.com

131–140 of 232 posts

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be banning surveillance of anyone not under active investigation, not simply domestically.

Why? Persons who are not US citizens who are not on US territory aren't given protections under our constitution. What's the reasoning behind this? Surveillance serves a national interest for the US, and while there ought to be limitations for domestic surveillance, I don't see why those ought to exist for foreigners in other countries.

Sneak is speaking specifically about the impact on the US IT industry. As an American IT worker, I agree. "Not subject to US jurisdiction" is becoming a feature.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be banning surveillance of anyone not under active investigation, not simply domestically.

Why? Persons who are not US citizens who are not on US territory aren't given protections under our constitution. What's the reasoning behind this? Surveillance serves a national interest for the US, and while there ought to be limitations for domestic surveillance, I don't see why those ought to exist for foreigners in other countries.

First, the Constitution itself doesn't say that only U.S. citizens in U.S. territory enjoy its protections. And the Declaration of Independence (which is not legally binding the way the Constitution is, but should give an idea of the mindset of the time) states all men are created equal.

Second, if we believe ideologically that privacy is a human right that should be protected, it is hypocritical to then say "Oh, but only for Americans. Everyone else can go fuck themselves." and it weakens the arguments for privacy in America as well as U.S. attempts to encourage other countries to protect privacy and other civil rights.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#133

Instead of voting to block funding for programs, why not repeal the laws that enable those programs in the first place? I don't understand this logic.

How can you repeal secret laws? There were report so secret laws and secret interpretations being used for 'justification' of unconstitutional activities.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, it is not something real or tangible. I'm all for defunding NSA, but it's not like a regular business which you can boycott by not giving them money. You have to go and ask permission from the government to not give the money (which they previously extracted from you by force for the "good of society") to some of the government agencies. It's pretty much like going to NSA itself and ask them to defund the…

Why wouldn't a boycott work? Instead of signing petitions that won't change a thing, try something that actually requires some real effort and look for alternatives to the current tech giants. For starters, stop using Facebook (gasp). When they realize that cooperating with the NSA will severely damage their reputation, they'll think twice before handing over user data this easily. Not to mention that if they realize…

This seems to be spot on. As unorganized individuals (or even somewhat organized individuals) it will be much harder for us to protest the actions of the government then if we had some billion dollar companies' corporate lobbyists out there every day talking to the actual senators on our behalf.

"We're losing money here, we really need you to vote like this and then we can give you a ton of money for your next campaign. If not, well, we'll fund that other guy and he'll get a bunch of rave press and you'll get a bunch of attack ads during the next election, what do you say Senator?"

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#135
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make this a choice between the surveillance super state and anarchy, you'll get the super state. Everyone knows we need some kind of government. It's definitely hard to imagine the NSA being defunded, but that is rooted in a culture that is less concerned with government compliance with law and more with "reasonable" outcomes. The inability to control institutions, and the establishment of those institutions a…

Everyone knows we need some kind of government I don't. Many people I know don't either. So what if we don't really need any kind of government?

I hear Somalia is nice this time of year.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#136
post #114

This won't work. Even if they defund the existing programs, the IC will just change the codenames and move them around between departments, as they did with TIA. The technology will live on. The only way to really end these programs would be a full public debate followed by a statute that outright bans them. Anything less is a PR move.

Even if it ultimately doesn't work, don't you think it's worth trying rather than just going around saying it won't work? It's likely going to be a long, slow process to change this, and we need all the wins we can get, if only to prevent apathy and show others who are on the fence that there's enough public outrage over this that they should get involved too. If we do manage to get it passed and then there are new l…

No. I don't think it's worth trying. If this is your goal, I think there are far more effective ways to go about it.

1. First, you'll need a political organization that is single-mindedly focused on this one issue. You'll need donors, professional lobbyists, a PR team, and a massive grassroots organization. Think Anti-Saloon League meets Rules for Radicals.

2. Then you focus on one or two elections of prominent politicians. Find someone vulnerable in the Senate. Then find an opponent that will vote against these policies, and win. That will put your group on the map in Washington.

3. Have your newly elected champion propose legislation that addresses policy avenues for which there is already support in Washington. I would focus on two areas: fixing the FISA court, and forming an investigatory committee.

Making the FISA court more than a rubber stamp will accomplish many of your goals in the short term. In brief, a few reforms that could go a long way would be the addition of attorneys appointed to oppose the government in motions, fair appointment process, and regularly publishing the findings of law of the court with the fact patterns redacted.

Forming an investigatory commission will accomplish your goals in the long term. A top to bottom review of the classified practices of the government, in both public and closed hearings, will bring the information up from the depths of the executive branch. Knowledge will breed more outrage, which will fuel both your political organization and grassroots efforts.

If you're successful, the result will look much like the Church Committee. Your ultimate goal should be to statutorily ban the programs, but you won't get there in one step, and certainly won't get close by cutting the funding to a few programs.

I'm not saying you shouldn't try, if this is your sincerely held belief. I'm simply saying that playing whack-a-mole with particular programs is a spectacularly ineffective way to pursue your goals.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#137
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you imagine your comment constructive?

If it can prevent the next wiseass from spouting his mouth, yes.

"I hope you'll be downvoted to hell."

"I know I'm a cynic and it's a bad habit I'm trying to change, maybe you should try too."

You're just an ass hiding his assyness behind false righteousness.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#139
post #114

This won't work. Even if they defund the existing programs, the IC will just change the codenames and move them around between departments, as they did with TIA. The technology will live on. The only way to really end these programs would be a full public debate followed by a statute that outright bans them. Anything less is a PR move.

In politics, partial victories can snowball. And vice versa: repeated loss teaches helplessness. The direct real effect of this would be small, but I'd expect it to be much more useful than a loss. Added: If you read about Watergate, the scandal wasn't any one event or one reaction: it took over two years from the break-in to the resignation, and people weren't sitting still. Some of the important action was in Congr…

This isn't Watergate. There isn't widespread public outrage. If you want to change the policies, you'll need to generate or simulate that outrage first.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#140
post #41

We elected Bush in 2004 when he had Tom Ridge upping the terror alert every week before the election. It never seemed to go down. But it always managed to go up to red every week. I think we have hit the point that you can't really roll anything back. If you do and 9/11 v.2.0 happens you are politically screwed. And, unfortunately, it is all about the next election and soccer moms.

"We elected Bush in 2004 when he had Tom Ridge upping the terror alert every week before the election." You hit the nail right on the head. The problem in America isn't the politicians, it's the people.

If Obama would do what he promised he would do, we would be in a better situation right now (about the PATRIOT Act, Guantanamo, etc..)
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