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Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

defundthensa.com

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Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#111

Post by toyg »

nakedrobot2 wrote: post #85
lrem wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that ignorant masses can be easily tricked into voting particular way. Some would say that direct democracy simply would not work. But, well, look at Switzerland...

In the case of Obama, half of the population was tricked. And lots of us weren't ignorant - only HOPEful that he wasn't a complete and utter liar.

To this day, I don't think he was when he first got elected; but he did not have a real political powerbase in the party, and so didn't really make a difference when nominating members of his administration. He let the Clintonites run the show, and of course they dragged him down in the same way they've done his predecessors. He squandered his star-power in the first year (when powerful people were begging to take pictures with him) and that was it. After that, he pretty much ran things as "Clinton III & IV". In fact, Bill himself is now to Obama's left on various issues, at least going by his public statements.

This is the problem with voting "the New Man who will clear up Washington": it rarely ever happens. Because the difference is made every day, inch by inch, by a political machinery built by a number of cadres, and Obama's machinery was fundamentally the same as Clinton's (and Kerry's, i.e. the people complicit in 8 years of GWB regime). In that I hoped he'd make a difference. When I saw Dean had been pushed out, I knew the gig was up.

Still, even before his first day in office, at least he made a big difference in one particular field (desegregation), which was long overdue.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#113

Post by sneak »

mcherm wrote: post #88

Important point: (This point was made clear in the actual page, but some of the comments suggest that not everyone understood it.) The title to this posting (and the name of the website) are misleading. This is not a proposal to block funding for the NSA. And that's good, because such a proposal would have NO chance of passing, and would probably be a bad idea anyhow. Instead, this is a proposal to block funding for…

Unfortunately, even if NSA stopped all domestic spying, the fact that they have programs like PRISM that silently turn any US company into a snitch for the US military means that the US internet industry has suffered an irreparable blow.

Obama getting on national TV and saying "we only target foreign entities" is the worst possible thing that could have happened. Even if all of this stuff works, the spying on foreigners via compelling US service providers to wiretap them is sufficient to end the internet industry in the USA as we know it.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#114

Post by s_q_b »

This won't work. Even if they defund the existing programs, the IC will just change the codenames and move them around between departments, as they did with TIA. The technology will live on.

The only way to really end these programs would be a full public debate followed by a statute that outright bans them. Anything less is a PR move.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#115

Post by DanielBMarkham »

andyakb wrote: post #90
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #56

No, no, a thousand times no. Hey, I'm the biggest fan of anonymity and privacy you can find. This is not an answer. It's an emotional over-reaction. Countries need intelligence agencies -- they are the best way NOT to fight future wars. SIGINT is a useful function when used against foreign leaders. It's just a terrible idea when used against the population as a whole. Separate the parts that work and are useful from…

Read the website. Despite the name, it is not about defunding the entire nsa, but instead about removing the authorization and funding for blanket data collection

You understand that my argument was not against all blanket data collection by the NSA, right? In many cases it might still work. That's the entire point: this issue does not reduce to simple answers, only shared values that can then discuss depending on the particular situation.

Address-to-address SIGiNT, two hops out, with only the address and time? I might could get behind that -- as long as I had that data also.

This discussion is not about surveillance. We are going to have that anyway. All this does is give it to every other country but us. This discussion is about priviledge -- who gets access to what?

Apologies for reaction to the link bait title, but that doesn't change the point I'm making.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#116

Post by cinquemb »

joyeuse6701 wrote: post #109
MisterWebz wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> remember that threats from the US are the only thing that prevents many countries from doing more horrible shit than they already do. You mean horrible shit like drone strikes that kill innocent civilians, illegally detaining "terrorists" and torturing them, spying on the whole world, and commanding other countries to ground a president's plane? Is that the kind of shit "they" already do?

Nah bro they target civilians and blow them up en masse. If you had to pick the lesser of two evils, the answer is pretty clear I think.

I guess 100+ plus drone strikes y/y with civillian casualties isn't en masse?

Wasn't there a drone strike that killed over a hundred women and children at a school in pakistan?

And lets not forget Falujah. It was pretty much turned into Depleted Urainium wasteland... and theres a WHO report on that.

Sounds like those evils are brothers...

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#117

Post by jaxbot »

donohoe wrote: post #112

I called all three of my listed representatives - the phone was answered almost immediately. It took less than 5 minutes of my time. It may even take you less. It was quite pleasant. Do it now!

Agreed. The people you call know exactly what to expect and make it as quick and painless as possible. They're also very pleasant. I'm young and shy but this was probably the easiest social interaction I've ever done. Worth a shot, worth 30 seconds.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#118

Post by mwsherman »

mcherm wrote: post #88

Important point: (This point was made clear in the actual page, but some of the comments suggest that not everyone understood it.) The title to this posting (and the name of the website) are misleading. This is not a proposal to block funding for the NSA. And that's good, because such a proposal would have NO chance of passing, and would probably be a bad idea anyhow. Instead, this is a proposal to block funding for…

Also important: money is fungible. To block funding for a particular activity is to say that Congress appropriates money per activity. I don’t think that’s the case, but would happily be corrected.

So a law that states ‘here’s your money, but you’re not allowed to use it for x’ seems toothless in the extreme. It’s words on a page.

Keep in mind also that the NSA is close to lawless, so any room for interpretation will gut the intent. If it’s words on a page, it’s room for interpretation.

The only actual solution is to actually reduce the NSA’s budget, substantially. Is that in this bill?

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#119

Post by LoganCale »

sneak wrote: post #113
mcherm wrote: post #88

Important point: (This point was made clear in the actual page, but some of the comments suggest that not everyone understood it.) The title to this posting (and the name of the website) are misleading. This is not a proposal to block funding for the NSA. And that's good, because such a proposal would have NO chance of passing, and would probably be a bad idea anyhow. Instead, this is a proposal to block funding for…

Unfortunately, even if NSA stopped all domestic spying, the fact that they have programs like PRISM that silently turn any US company into a snitch for the US military means that the US internet industry has suffered an irreparable blow. Obama getting on national TV and saying "we only target foreign entities" is the worst possible thing that could have happened. Even if all of this stuff works, the spying on foreign…

It should be banning surveillance of anyone not under active investigation, not simply domestically.
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