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Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

defundthensa.com

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Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#91

Post by snitko »

chernevik wrote: post #65
oleganza wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, it is not something real or tangible. I'm all for defunding NSA, but it's not like a regular business which you can boycott by not giving them money. You have to go and ask permission from the government to not give the money (which they previously extracted from you by force for the "good of society") to some of the government agencies. It's pretty much like going to NSA itself and ask them to defund the…

If you make this a choice between the surveillance super state and anarchy, you'll get the super state. Everyone knows we need some kind of government. It's definitely hard to imagine the NSA being defunded, but that is rooted in a culture that is less concerned with government compliance with law and more with "reasonable" outcomes. The inability to control institutions, and the establishment of those institutions a…

Everyone knows we need some kind of government

I don't. Many people I know don't either. So what if we don't really need any kind of government?

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#92

Post by brown9-2 »

mcherm wrote: post #82
brown9-2 wrote: post #75

Instead of voting to block funding for programs, why not repeal the laws that enable those programs in the first place? I don't understand this logic.

The laws do NOT enable the programs. The laws had specific clauses stating that they could not be used for this sort of widespread surveillance of innocent citizens. But the administration has an "interpretation" of the laws which apparently is at odds with the plain text of the law. I can't say HOW they came by this interpretation, because the interpretation of the law is secret. (Yeah... really.) So maybe the power…

Or Congress could pass new laws that remove any ambiguity that allows for a different "interpretation" than what was intended.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#93

Post by triplepoint217 »

sinak wrote: post #31

Just a quick note to add that this was built over the course of 5 hours by four developers as part of http://taskforce.is , which was pretty much assembled here on Hacker News. Please take a few minutes to call. It's amazing how low conversion rates are on calling campaigns like this one - a factor of 100 lower than email asks - but this is really critical. We only have one day to make this happen. If you're interest…

I just called.

A feature that would be really nice: A way for me to give them my email address and zip code and then get an email when vote results are posted with how my Representative voted.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#94

Post by noarchy »

falk wrote: post #70
unimpressive wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>David D. Friedman and Stefan Molyneux Any particular volumes?

This guy is nothing more than an extremist. Ask him about his prison system and I'm sure he'll parrot how privatized prisons are the solution to our woes. Alas, they aren't. Be weary of someone trying to tell you that if we just did X everything would be so much better.

I can't think of a better way to drive traffic to the authors that OP mentioned than to take this approach. You're going to make people wonder just what they're missing, if this stuff is so "extremist".

I'd be surprised if someone touting anarcho-capitalist politics would be in favour of private prisons, at least the flavour we're used to today, where governments pay companies to house inmates. There isn't anything particularly anarchist about such a thing.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#95

Post by calibraxis »

healsdata wrote: post #60
[deleted] wrote: post #36

[deleted]

The US isn't a direct democracy and, if I understand history correctly, that was on purpose and not just a matter of practicality. A direct democracy allows the majority to pass laws that benefit themselves while punishing the minority. We already have politicians passing ridiculous laws just to pander for votes; I can't see how it wouldn't be worse if the people being pandered to made the laws instead. The internet…

But which minority? The US founders clearly weren't talking about non-whites and women, who were property. Instead, the minority was the wealthy elites.

During the "Secret Debates of the Federal Convention" (where the windows were shut in the summer heat so those outside couldn't hear what was said), the Father of the Constitution, Madison, discussed the conflicting interests between "the day laborer" and "the man who is possessed of wealth, who lolls on his sofa, or rolls in his carriage":

"In England, at this day, if elections were open to all classes of people, the property of the landed proprietors would be insecure. [...] Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority." (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/yates.asp)

More useful to read than the Federalist Papers, which are propaganda. (BTW, it may help to know that the senate originally wasn't open to popular election. That battle was finally won in 1913, with the 17th amendment.)

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#96

Post by krapp »

snitko wrote: post #91
chernevik wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make this a choice between the surveillance super state and anarchy, you'll get the super state. Everyone knows we need some kind of government. It's definitely hard to imagine the NSA being defunded, but that is rooted in a culture that is less concerned with government compliance with law and more with "reasonable" outcomes. The inability to control institutions, and the establishment of those institutions a…

Everyone knows we need some kind of government I don't. Many people I know don't either. So what if we don't really need any kind of government?

I think that we would still have governments because organizing into collectives to assert power and control resources is inevitable as long as inequalities between people and scarcity of resources exist.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#97

Post by devcpp »

ajb wrote: post #64
[deleted] wrote: post #36

[deleted]

This is a straw man. The campaign is not to defund the entire NSA, it is to defund collection of records "that pertain to persons who are not subject to an investigation under Section 215".

Exactly. The NSA can't use their funds however they feel like. They have to account to several governmental entities for their (secret) precise funding, and I doubt they would lie about it and take their resources from their useful tasks in order to reallocate them to spying on non-suspect citizens.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#98

Post by Zigurd »

spaznode wrote: post #74

Makes sense hn would too vote such a stupid idea. If it didn't exist already something like it would have to be created.

The Soviet Union went out of business in 1991. Why do we still have a mechanism that was built to target a closed totalitarian system armed with 20 megaton hydrogen bombs? The NSA is out of date and out of place.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#100

Post by siddboots »

brown9-2 wrote: post #92
mcherm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The laws do NOT enable the programs. The laws had specific clauses stating that they could not be used for this sort of widespread surveillance of innocent citizens. But the administration has an "interpretation" of the laws which apparently is at odds with the plain text of the law. I can't say HOW they came by this interpretation, because the interpretation of the law is secret. (Yeah... really.) So maybe the power…

Or Congress could pass new laws that remove any ambiguity that allows for a different "interpretation" than what was intended.

Even so, they are doing it this way because it is a late amendment to the directly related Defense Appropriations Bill. They can hardly stick clarifications to the Patriot Act on to it. It would be great to "treat the cause, not the symptoms", but they didn't have the immediate opportunity to do that.
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