Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes
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Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes
#2My recollection is the CIA considers any military aged males in the area of a strike to be enemy combatants, which could be one cause for significantly different numbers.
Here we go:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in...
"It is also because Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent."
Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes
#3Growing up in the 70s, we looked at news from the Soviet Union and other authoritarian regimes as blatantly untrue propaganda. By comparison, our press and government practiced transparency -- they may have lied, but not on the scale the others did.
I keep slipping back into believing the United States government believes in honesty and transparency, at least relatively more than other governments. In some areas it might, but not on major issues like war.
It's painful to watch a government that instituted the Marshall Plan actively destroy its credibility like this. Or to think of the consequences. Or to see them play out.
Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes
#4This numbers are a bit higher
http://drones.pitchinteractive.com/
And that only counts Pakistan. Afganistan, Algeria, Iraq, Libya, Somalia and Yemen were attacked by drones too
http://www.policymic.com/articles/23708/guess-which-8-countr...
Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes
#5My recollection is the CIA considers any military aged males in the area of a strike to be enemy combatants, which could be one cause for significantly different numbers. Here we go: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in... "It is also because Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a stri…
Well it goes back to Vietnam really. The idea was that bullets fired by American soldiers towards civilians would automatically turn those civilians into Viet Cong. That was basically the unspoken policy.
Another story was from a helicopter pilot. They would capture what looked like "enemy combatants", load them into a helicopter for transport, then proceed to interrogate them under a threat of being thrown down on the ground. And then they would get the information and throw them off the helicopter But the issue was that they had to count the casualties. So the policy was to _always_ count when disembarking the helicopter not before. As those two numbers were sometimes quite different.
Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes
#6I doubt most of the other deaths were ever given much of a fair trial, so the implication of innocence should probably be applied a bit more broadly. You know, since we're defending democracy and all.
Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes
#7Growing up in the 70s, we looked at news from the Soviet Union and other authoritarian regimes as blatantly untrue propaganda. By comparison, our press and government practiced transparency -- they may have lied, but not on the scale the others did. I keep slipping back into believing the United States government believes in honesty and transparency, at least relatively more than other governments. In some areas it m…
I grew up in the 80s in the Soviet Union. And the thing is, we never believed their propaganda because it was too ridiculous. Everyone was laughing at the bullshit they heard on the radio and TV. True believers have disappeared probably the the mid 60s or so. Even defecting spies had stopped using "ideology" as the reason for their defection it was too unbelievable.
Likewise might happen in US. It seems two things has happened already. They stretched propaganda vs reality difference too thin. And the Internet.
It becomes harder to keep a straight face telling others about freedom, privacy, free market, human rights in light of news about torture, drones, spying etc. Also, without an ability to get access to alternative media and if Fox was the only channel available many would still thing this country was God's gift to humanity. It is just the pesky Internets that lets "domestic terrorists" like Occupy organize and share idea. Pesky little extremists forums like /r/news lets people discuss issues outside the mainstream media.
On another note. There was an old joke from back in the 90's. "When Soviet Union fell, we found out everything they told us about Communism was a lie. And everything they told us about America was true".
Good counter-propaganda after all, is often not telling lies just telling the dark truth the other side is trying to hide. In other words I doubt the Marshall Plan America is a good ol America or is it the America that still believed in segregation, raping South American countries for profit, installing brutal dictators in South East Asia and so on.
Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes
#8Growing up in the 70s, we looked at news from the Soviet Union and other authoritarian regimes as blatantly untrue propaganda. By comparison, our press and government practiced transparency -- they may have lied, but not on the scale the others did. I keep slipping back into believing the United States government believes in honesty and transparency, at least relatively more than other governments. In some areas it m…
Not only is it painful to watch this, it's even more painful to think about how far we've fallen, and how quickly. It wasn't that long ago where most mainstream US media sources could be trusted to provide insightful, fact-checked journalism.
Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes
#9I doubt most of the other deaths were ever given much of a fair trial, so the implication of innocence should probably be applied a bit more broadly. You know, since we're defending democracy and all.
The military does not give trials to the people it kills. Drone strikes are a military action.
Re: Leaked report shows high civilian death toll from CIA drone strikes
#10Growing up in the 70s, we looked at news from the Soviet Union and other authoritarian regimes as blatantly untrue propaganda. By comparison, our press and government practiced transparency -- they may have lied, but not on the scale the others did. I keep slipping back into believing the United States government believes in honesty and transparency, at least relatively more than other governments. In some areas it m…
The Marshall Plan came at a cost: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio