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Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

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Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#91
I think the concept of "patent troll" is doing us more harm than good. The implication of this expression is that the badness is in the "trollish" aspect, and not in the "patent" aspect of it.

Patent trolls are what happens when the patent system is taken to its logical conclusion. So if patent trolls are evil, then the patent system itself is evil.

The fact that some or even many patent holders _aren't_ evil is beside the point.

Imagine, for example, that there was a law which gave husbands permission to rape their wives. Presumably only _some_ husbands would take advantage of this law. So one might conclude that the law isn't bad, it's just that society has to find some way to deal with those bad husbands, the so-called "marital sex trolls", who take advantage of such a law.

And the bad husbands would say something like: "Morally, I think husbands deserve some reward for the benefits that they bring to a marriage."

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#92

I have an LLC (US), but this is one of the blunders I've made and I plan on dissolving it soon. There are many reasons to my answer, here are some: The problem with a US based LLC is that you open up free access to thousands of patent trolls waiting to eat your hard earned money. This isn't a problem if you can afford a decent Lawyer for $5000-15000, but for businesses like mine, which are bootstrapped, it's totally…

Somewhat unrelated, but what other countries have you considered? I wanted to open a US LLC to sell Android/iOS apps (my country is limited to free apps) but given that I can't open a US Bank Account (at this point) I've been looking for other options.

I haven't considered others, since India works well for me. There's not concept of 'class action suit' in India which makes it even more attractive for me. And there is very little capital involved too to start up a company - Somewhere like $50 max (for a proprietorship).

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#93

suggestion: every company that receives one of these things should incorporate in nigeria or something, till US lawmakers wake the fuck up.

Isle of Mann?

UK patent law, 'relaxed' personal taxation, zero corporation tax, good motor bike racing, English widely spoken, good transport links with mainland, temperate climate, funky passport. I imagine remote ownership is possible.

On a more serious note, patent protection was designed to promote innovation by providing a monopoly in exchange for full disclosure so others could understand and further improve. In the US this purpose is (apparently) not being achieved so as others have said, time for some politics.

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#94
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anybody who wants to sue you must post a $25k USD bond to the Nevis government before even proceeding. Why would they do that? o_O They will file at their local US court. You're free to sell to Nevis all that you want -- but do not come with your product into US until the US litigation is won.

Right! US Customs will just confiscate your network traffic at the border.

The traffic is not interesting. Business transactions are; incidentally, the transactions are trivially blocked.

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#95
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SaaS are not immune too. Example: http://www.ca.com/ca/en/news/Press-Releases/na/2013/CA-Techn... "... seeking ... an injunction against AppDynamics prohibiting the infringement of CA Technologies patents" In case CA wins, the court will prohibit AppDynamics to sell any product that violate CA's patents. Yes, one may host the company in Canada. How to sell to US customers though? VISA, MC and AMEX all have US presenc…

CA is in New York; AppDynamics is in San Francisco. Those are both places in the USA. Getting an injunction against a company outside the USA for software running outside the USA is not within the claimed jurisdiction of US patent laws.

So we has just established that not only hardware companies are at risk. Good.

Now, step two: US trolls will not sue a company doing business outside of US; too much trouble. But any company doing business in US is a subject to local laws, and most SaaS companies want to work on US market simply because it is the biggest one.

"Doing business in US" means, among other things, having US customers and using US payment processors.

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#96
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikileaks blockade is a good example of the power that can be used when parties fail to come to an agreement. Most companies though prefer to settle out of court because the court is quite a gambling, that's why we do not hear it more often.

Wikileaks is based in Sweden and was seen as threatening by the US govt. Companies that settle out of court are, from what I have read, small to medium sized US based companies that can face legal action if they do nothing. What I am talking about is a small company that is foreign based in a place that does not comply with US patents. Has there been one that has ignored US patents and been shut down by having their…

In other words, is being small & poor a good defense against trolls? Yes, it is.

Try to get bigger though or get a investment round, and troll will come after you.

It is not a coincidence that the company in the article's got trolls about the same time it's got an investment.

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#97

“You’ll stay in business and license from us, or you’ll go out of business,” he told him over the phone. “Either way is fine with me.” There are villains in this world. They used to hide beside the road and beat then rob travellers. Later they rode around in rusty pickups with ak's killing and robbing villagers. Their weapons change but their tactics don't. The measure of civilization is how we choose to deal with th…

Indeed. Also - that quote struck a nerve because it is -exactly- what mobsters say to shop owners when they're demanding (extorting) protection money.

This is nothing more than legal (for now) extortion.

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#98
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can move the company. But as long as you make sales in US, you can be blocked from doing business.

How would they exactly block you from doing business? Unless you have a physical presence, if all your transcations take place online, how would it be different from doing in the US and outside?

It may all look like bits to you, but here's something to think about: I have recently bought an electronic product from a company in a different country. The payment processor though added Canadian HST tax on top of the purchase. Processor did two things: it figured out I'm in Canada so the HST tax may apply, and it knew that the product was actually sold via a reseller, which also registered in Canada, which made HST mandatory.

You see? The online purchases are not as unregulated as they may seem. There are laws about them, and the online companies do follow those laws.

Trying to sell banned service to US customer is not much easier than trying to sell banned food. One may try but the interested troll only need to send a cease-and-desist to yet another payment processor one uses to sell to US, and the service is on square one, again.

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#99
post #69
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google, Twitter, Yahoo and Facebook need to make this insurance happen. They all want to help erase software patent abuse anyway, right? Are they serious about it? If so, they could put together this insurance at reasonable/subsidized rates for startups, and immediately get the opportunity to fight 90%+ of all patent troll cases relevant to their interests.

Google, Twitter, Yahoo and Facebook all hold patents which will make you go "wat. that is patentable?". They aren't nice guys. And all of them (except for yahoo) are holding de-facto monopolies.

Every large tech company wants a patent portfolio, as a defensive moat.

But the companies I mentioned don't actively engage in shakedowns, as far as I know; I left Microsoft off of that list because of its poorly disguised attempts to destroy Linux through patent trolling, and Apple because of the Samsung case, and Oracle because of the Java case, and Amazon because of one-click ...

In contrast, I don't see something like this necessarily being against the best interests or modus operandi of the companies I mentioned.

I can see it being unpractical, unlikely or unattainable for a variety of reasons, but those companies have de-facto monopolies, not state-granted monopolies (patents), and that they seem to prefer to operate in a world where you're allowed to innovate.

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#100
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that Fortune 1000 companies or startups funded and guided by well-connected VC firms are unsophisticated consumers that are unwittingly paying $500+/hour for paralegal work is laughable.

Isn't it? And that's why many law firms are laughing all the way to the bank, as well as why there's a growing trend to bring legal work in-house among the Fortune 1000, which has only recently realized that it's being fleeced. I'm not just guessing here. I just spent a year as a fellow at Stanford Law and heard all about it from people on both sides. I also have a friend who just quit his job as an associate at one…

There is always a surge of bringing legal work in-house after a recession, because you've experienced lawyers on the market looking for a job and willing to take a pay-cut to go in-house. It happened as well after the early 1990's recession. I don't know how permanent that phenomenon is, I think other shifts like the move to flat billing are going to be more sticky.

Your friend's characterization of his work seems phat. The first year transactional associates I know are summarizing term sheets, conducting due diligence, etc. It's fairly rote, but it's stuff that's just context-sensitive enough not to be automatable. And as a practical matter, entry-level positions in any field, maybe outside of valley startups, tend to be pretty rote. Some of my friends might sum up their entry-level programming roles by saying that their jobs just involved "changing colors of widgets in the UI in response to support tickets." It's training, work that prepares the associate to do more complex tasks down the road. Speaking broadly, training entry-level people, in any field, is part of the cost of business. In law firms as in any other business, those costs get passed onto consumers.

As a counter-example, I'll offer my own experience as a first year litigator. I spent 75% of my time doing legal or factual research (including researching several issues of first impression), drafting research memos, preparing interview outlines, and summarizing expert testimony.[1] I spent 25% of my time reviewing discovery documents, and that process was heavily automated/outsourced. We were generally only looking at documents that had been marked potentially significant by either a contract attorney ($35/hour in NYC, less in India) or a predictive coding algorithm. The exception was when a batch of documents was too small to be worth dealing with the set-up overhead of putting a contract team together or training the predictive coding software.[2]

[1] Electronic access to case research is of course a big boon to making that sort of work more efficient. However, I should note that at the end of the day, using Lexis/Westlaw saves the client a lot of money. Google Scholar is so spectacularly bad for legal research that it takes much longer to get an answer, and you feel less confident in the answer you get. The limitations of Google Scholar when it comes to legal and scientific research are very telling insight into the limits of automation with existing technology. Google is amazing, but fundamentally its not actually intelligent. It suggests to you what you might want to look at based on what other people looked at. When that popularity heuristic is inapplicable, it becomes really unhelpful.

[2] This is a flip-side to automation technology that gets glossed-over. In a mega-litigation, predictive coding is a huge boon because you might have hundreds of thousands of documents. But in a more run-of-the-mill litigation, the time it takes to train the predictive coding engine might negate any advantage over just having a first year associate look at the documents.

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