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The Forbidden Island

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Re: The Forbidden Island

#251

Post by pg »

aaron695 wrote: post #142
geuis wrote: post #45

I'm pretty late to leaving a comment, so it won't get a lot of exposure. Let's just leave these people the fuck alone. What threat are they under? Curious assholes like us. There are probably less than 1000 people on that island, all descended from people tens of thousands of years ago. There are more people than that that visit an Apple store on a Tuesday before 2pm. Leave them alone. We don't need to assuage our 10…

This sort of comment is exactly what is wrong what the world. What is your expertise in this area? Are you a anthropologist?? I suspect you are just one of these sick people who like the idea mini zoos with humans in them. These are human beings. They deserve access to modern medicines like the rest of us of the world even if you lose this precious zoo. How are their women treated? That is the ones who don't die in c…

And this sort of comment is exactly what's wrong with HN. You could have made these same points more effectively without baiting the person you're replying to.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#252

Post by dennisgorelik »

ctdonath wrote: post #147
Anderkent wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if a man is jumping of a cliff because he thinks he can fly, you should not respect his 'NO' when trying to catch him. Your serious argument is one of the little valid points raised so far. And I agree, we might not be in a position to help them now. But the statements that even if we could bring them to our society in a humane manner we still shouldn't, because they're clearly fine as they are... That just disgu…

They're not jumping off a cliff. They've been doing fine (insofar as they're surviving with a small population) for some 60 thousand years. First contact alone will probably kill them with diseases (a well-documented phenomenon). More akin to a guy standing on a ledge of a cliff, albeit precarious but doing fine; if you try to help him, he'll probably fall and die fast. He knows this, and he's telling you to stay the…

It's not about their interests. It's about our interests of preserving that ancient culture for our research purposes.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#253

Post by foobarbazqux »

pg wrote: post #251
aaron695 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of comment is exactly what is wrong what the world. What is your expertise in this area? Are you a anthropologist?? I suspect you are just one of these sick people who like the idea mini zoos with humans in them. These are human beings. They deserve access to modern medicines like the rest of us of the world even if you lose this precious zoo. How are their women treated? That is the ones who don't die in c…

And this sort of comment is exactly what's wrong with HN. You could have made these same points more effectively without baiting the person you're replying to.

All you have to do is issue a decree that encourages people to upvote civility and downvote incivility, as opposed to the current standard which says upvote agreement and downvote disagreement.

People upvoted this guy because they agreed with his fundamental points despite the baiting, and in turn he received positive feedback. I think maybe you underestimate the effect karma has on posting behavior; it's not just about pushing comments up and down the page.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#254

Post by pcrh »

saalweachter wrote: post #235
pcrh wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the infant mortality in the 3rd world is due to infectious disease or conditions like diarrhea. These are diseases common in crowded unsanitary places accompanied by poor nutrition. It would be mistaken, therefore, to assume that the same conditions would prevail in isolated places like North Sentinel Island, where the people are apparently well nourished. So the infant mortality rate there may be above the…

Excellent point. Is ~400 people a large enough population to support most diseases, or is it possible that they essentially (infectious) disease free by virtue of their tiny population? I'm also curious what the genetics of a 400-person island look like. I always assumed that the minimum viable population was larger than that -- somewhere in the thousands -- but if the population estimate is correct, and has been for…

A small isolated population like that will be free of most infectious diseases. The number of Sentinelese isn't known, but may be as low as 100, since the Sentinelese, Great Andamanese, and Onge,(i.e. those on the island in question as well as the neighboring islands) have "a combined population of 400–500 individuals." [2].

Several studies, two on the genetics of the Andamanese [1,2] and the other on their linguistics [3] suggest that they have been isolated for 50-70,000 yr. The genetics studies also showed a very low population diversity, so in common parlance they are "inbred". Oddly enough, if they have been isolated for long enough, they will therefore be free of most genetic diseases, since the rare ones will be manifested early on in their isolation due to inbreeding, and then selected against. Genetic conditions that don't affect reproductive fitness could be common, though. Genetic isolation can also result in increased susceptibility to pathogens later introduced from outside said population.

[1]Kashyap, V. K., et al. "Molecular relatedness of the aboriginal groups of Andaman and Nicobar Islands with similar ethnic populations." International Journal of Human Genetics 3 (2003): 5-11.

[2] Thangaraj, Kumarasamy, et al. "Genetic affinities of the Andaman Islanders, a vanishing human population." Current Biology 13.2 (2003): 86-93.

[3]Abbi, Anvita. "Is Great Andamanese genealogically and typologically distinct from Onge and Jarawa?." Language Sciences 31.6 (2009): 791-812.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#255

Post by jacoblyles »

Spooky23 wrote: post #248
precisioncoder wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern medicine, physics, modern housing, sanitation, plumbing, etc, etc. They have a massive amount to gain. You can romanticize their situation, or we can decide to leave them there for other reasons but claiming they have nothing to gain is just plain wrong.

Fascinating, but why is it our business? By that measure, should western governments be liberating various cultures who don't live in a manner consistent with western ideals?

In practice, this seems to be a large part of what Western governments do. There's nothing the West loves to do so much as meddling in other people's affairs and bringing the blessings of democracy to people that never wanted it.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#256

Post by [deleted] »

bennyg wrote: post #143
pilom wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I would assume they have a better quality of life than the majority of the planet" I'd agree with you that they probably have a more enjoyable day to day experience, however I also would bet that they have an infant mortality rate that is astronomical even by 3rd world standards. And that they have an average life expectancy which isn't hard to beat in the 3rd world. I'm not saying that these 2 things justify us for…

The United States is 35th in infant mortality ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mor... ) - and the US is 33rd in life expectancy ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expec... ). You just said you didn't know their two statistics in those categories, but a hunch may be enough to go in and shake things up for them.

[deleted]

Re: The Forbidden Island

#257

Post by newnewnew »

Anderkent wrote: post #112
annnnd wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't really matter. If a girl refuses to go out with you, she might not be in a position where she can make an informed decision. And she is possibly depriving her future children of a magnificent father, condemning them to life without you. But you should still respect her "NO". On a more serious note, given some historic evidence how our contact with other tribes ended (pick any tribe, anytime, anywhere) I…

But if a man is jumping of a cliff because he thinks he can fly, you should not respect his 'NO' when trying to catch him. Your serious argument is one of the little valid points raised so far. And I agree, we might not be in a position to help them now. But the statements that even if we could bring them to our society in a humane manner we still shouldn't, because they're clearly fine as they are... That just disgu…

Would they be better off with a desk job in some western city? That's likely out of grasp, as they would have no competitive skills compared to westerners that have trained for our economy for their whole lives. They would likely be wards of the state in a strange land, and so would their children.

Or, you know, they could live a life that makes them happy.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#258

Post by icelancer »

foobarbazqux wrote: post #253
pg wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this sort of comment is exactly what's wrong with HN. You could have made these same points more effectively without baiting the person you're replying to.

All you have to do is issue a decree that encourages people to upvote civility and downvote incivility, as opposed to the current standard which says upvote agreement and downvote disagreement. People upvoted this guy because they agreed with his fundamental points despite the baiting, and in turn he received positive feedback. I think maybe you underestimate the effect karma has on posting behavior; it's not just ab…

>All you have to do is issue a decree that encourages people to upvote civility and downvote incivility, as opposed to the current standard which says upvote agreement and downvote disagreement.

This doesn't matter. Doesn't work on reddit, doesn't work on StackOverflow, and won't work anywhere else.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#259

Post by VMG »

king_jester wrote: post #130
VMG wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But those are our standards, not theirs I think it is fair to assume that health and life are universal standards. I'm willing to bet on in.

What does this even mean? Talking in platitudes about health and life are all fine and dandy, and yet the in US there are tremendous issues with poverty, health care access, and control of one's own body. Societies do things very differently even if they say they promote life or health, but that kind if wishy washy dialog is useless, what matters are the details.

> Talking in platitudes about health and life are all fine and dandy, and yet the in US there are tremendous issues with poverty, health care access, and control of one's own body.

I think health care access is an even greater problem on that island.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#260

Post by javert »

A bunch of strangers all over the world conversing on the Internet about whether a primitive tribe ought to be contacted.

This really does seem like science fiction.

In comparison to them, we are like godly beings, communicating in some unfathomably high-tech way to discuss their fate.

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