Live data from Hacker News

Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

pandodaily.com

51–60 of 105 posts

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#51
post #18

Excuse my ignorance, but have any companies succeeded by just replying "Go Get Fucked" to patent trolls?

If they file suit you have to show up or you lose the case. If you don't get lawyers involved you are hosed.

AFAIK if you're a corporation, you must be represented by a lawyer in the US.

If you're not a corporation, AFAIK you can go pro se (be your own defense attorney), but in that route you're not just risking the business -- if you lose and the damages are more than the business can pay, they'll be able to seize your house, your car, and your kids' college fund. And your credit rating will be ruined if you have to declare bankruptcy personally, so you might not be able to get credit cards for a decade or two afterwards.

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#52
post #19

Does anyone sell patent-troll insurance?

Too easy to game. With the minimum legal cost of a successful defense being $200,000, what kind of monthly rate would cover that?

Google, Twitter, Yahoo and Facebook need to make this insurance happen.

They all want to help erase software patent abuse anyway, right? Are they serious about it?

If so, they could put together this insurance at reasonable/subsidized rates for startups, and immediately get the opportunity to fight 90%+ of all patent troll cases relevant to their interests.

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#53
post #34
post #9

In addition to patent reform, why legals bills are so astronomical? The whole thing stinks.

Legal bill = billing rate * hours billed. The number of hours billed is very dependent on the structure of the law. One of the goals of courts is to streamline the law so that cases that don't have merit can be dismissed quickly and easily. If you follow litigations in the popular press, you'll see that a lot of lawsuits get dismissed on "technicalities" (i.e. procedural rules). E.g. the EFF's NSA litigation is in da…

> One of the goals of courts is to streamline the law

And one of the goals of (relatively) rich plaintiffs who sue (relatively) poor defendants is to drag out the case as much as possible to impose costs and inconveniences on the defendant.

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#54

look kids, the system is rigged. you dont organize, you dont form voting groups based on your issues, you dont get involved in politics, and when the rules bend the odds vehemently against you, you go to a social media website and bitch about it. when are you losers going to wake the hell up? and oh yeah, Aaron Shwartz, never forget. edit: you know theres a business opportunity right there. you know crowd funding? ho…

super edit: i'll seed fund it. i'm old, bitter, and have money.

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#55

look kids, the system is rigged. you dont organize, you dont form voting groups based on your issues, you dont get involved in politics, and when the rules bend the odds vehemently against you, you go to a social media website and bitch about it. when are you losers going to wake the hell up? and oh yeah, Aaron Shwartz, never forget. edit: you know theres a business opportunity right there. you know crowd funding? ho…

super edit: i'll seed fund it. i'm old, bitter, and have money.

sorry, paul graham gets first the option to seed fund it. thats the gentlemanly thing to do, since this is his bulletin board. i'll explain to you how the world works in exchange for equity in that case.

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#56

look kids, the system is rigged. you dont organize, you dont form voting groups based on your issues, you dont get involved in politics, and when the rules bend the odds vehemently against you, you go to a social media website and bitch about it. when are you losers going to wake the hell up? and oh yeah, Aaron Shwartz, never forget. edit: you know theres a business opportunity right there. you know crowd funding? ho…

super edit: i'll seed fund it. i'm old, bitter, and have money.

for real. 2k USD/month for 5 months for anyone who puts this together. think of it as pre-ycombinator funding.

promissory note.

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#57
post #53
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal bill = billing rate * hours billed. The number of hours billed is very dependent on the structure of the law. One of the goals of courts is to streamline the law so that cases that don't have merit can be dismissed quickly and easily. If you follow litigations in the popular press, you'll see that a lot of lawsuits get dismissed on "technicalities" (i.e. procedural rules). E.g. the EFF's NSA litigation is in da…

> One of the goals of courts is to streamline the law And one of the goals of (relatively) rich plaintiffs who sue (relatively) poor defendants is to drag out the case as much as possible to impose costs and inconveniences on the defendant.

As a practical matter, that's not a situation the federal courts encounter very often. It's usually poor plaintiffs suing rich defendants, or rich plaintiffs suing other rich plaintiffs.

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

super edit: i'll seed fund it. i'm old, bitter, and have money.

for real. 2k USD/month for 5 months for anyone who puts this together. think of it as pre-ycombinator funding. promissory note.

http://www.plainsite.org/issues

Re: Life for a startup on the receiving end of a patent law suit

#60
As much as patent trolls are an enormous problem, they are not the only villains in this story. The others are of course the lawyers and the courts.

Let's say that you received a summons in the mail informing you that your startup was being sued. First of all, why are you receiving it in the mail? Why can't the Secretary of State ask for your e-mail address (as some do) and actually use it for service of process? (Answer: because the courts aren't even sure they want to allow a technology as sophisticated as Certified Mail to be permitted for service of process, let alone fax. E-mail? You must be joking.)

Once you get the summons, assuming you can even understand what it means, what do you do? Look up the case on-line? Probably not. That would require you to have a PACER account, which costs money beyond $15.00 per quarter in fake-page access at $0.10 per fake-page. It would also require you to know how to navigate the system, which isn't particularly easy. Assuming that you could, and could understand the legal documents, you might be able to learn a lot right there.

Instead, what most people would do is pay a lawyer to handle all of this for them, at anywhere from $300 to $600 per hour. But what does lawyering really involve? Copying and pasting from Microsoft Word templates, turning Word files into PDFs, attesting to obvious things ("I have caused this envelope to be placed in the mail as of this date") and occasionally reading a similar case to cite. But mostly it's not that difficult. There are definitely aspects that require skill and logical thinking. That's maybe 5% of the work.

So why are we paying $300 to $600 per hour for highly indebted people to do things that computers could? Because the courts won't let computers into the picture. They won't even let companies represent themselves through their founders, even though Citizens United guarantees corporate freedom of speech (everywhere except inside the courtroom, apparently). If they did allow technology to enter the picture, handling a patent infringement assertion might actually be fairly trivial--something you could do in a few minutes on a web form--and at worst, as annoying as calling customer service.

The USPTO isn't blameless either. For more on that you can look at some slides from a presentation I gave at the USPTO Software Patent Round Table in February, 2013.

Slides http://www.aarongreenspan.com/technology/20130212.softwarepa...

Video http://helix-1.uspto.gov/asxgen/20130212_SoftwarePartnership...

Post reply on HN