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The Forbidden Island

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101–110 of 288 posts

Re: The Forbidden Island

#101
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, in "The Truman Show" the protagonist was not participating with his own volition. He did not wanted to restrain himself inside. These people had a lot of contact with the outside world and still want to be left alone. The parallel is not quite valid. Second, this is natural. The island is natural, the people with their ancestry and isolationist policy are as natural as possible. Even if we'd put cameras, we'd…

> I'd argue that their attitude to the outside world can only be based on very little information most of which is probably no longer relevant

Actually, I would argue that their information is VERY relevant. Humans make the same mistakes / crimes / ... over and over and over again. I am quite sure that Columbus approached the natives with gifts, and look where it ended.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#103
post #68
post #45

I'm pretty late to leaving a comment, so it won't get a lot of exposure. Let's just leave these people the fuck alone. What threat are they under? Curious assholes like us. There are probably less than 1000 people on that island, all descended from people tens of thousands of years ago. There are more people than that that visit an Apple store on a Tuesday before 2pm. Leave them alone. We don't need to assuage our 10…

But what if they have a brutal dictator there? Or slavery? Or sexual abuse (like on pitcairn island)? On balance though, I think all countries should leave one another alone. Foreign intervention frequently seems to do more harm than good. These people though are now living in a constructed reality like 'The truman Show', we just haven't put the cameras in yet.

Commerce with all nations, alliance with none.

What can they trade ? Knowledge about their way of living, genomic studies, dieting habits, linguistic analysis, anthropological studies of they way they represent the world. Last both are really dangerous to them because those interactions will alter their culture in significant ways. The first one are highly valuable.*

What can we trade ? A lot. What can we trade that wouldn't annihilate their core identity ? I can't think of anything yet.

* but not yet as valuable as oil, diamonds or uranium otherwise the Indian authorities would have adopted a very different set of directives.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#104
Let’s suppose our earth is visited by aliens. Giant extraterrestial spaceships appear. They make contact, abduct a couple of humans, some of which return with strange diseases. Oh yeah, and heaps of iPads as gifts. The people that make it back speak of a strange society, where everybody is essentially a mindless part of a big mainframe, not unlike the Borg in Star Trek.

One day, the aliens make contact. We try to fend them off, but our weapons don’t seem to harm them. They explain that their intentions are good, and that by assimilating mankind, we no longer have to deal with hunger, poverty, crime, fear or even death.

You like?

Absurd, right? Yet this is probably not far from how the Sentinelese see us. They have heard from diseases they cannot fight from other tribes, they have witnessed the abductions. Why should things be different all of the sudden?

My point is: we have to stop seeing our culture or civilization as superior. In the alien analogy, becoming a Borg-like drone is probably far better in the eyes of the aliens. Why would these ‘savage’ humans would want to deal with the perils of life? Why can’t they see that we’re just here to help them?

Their culture, their world view is so far apart from ours. Do we really think that, when we show them a modern hospital, they’ll think it’s a good idea? Do we really believe that these people would somehow benefit from things like cell phones, cars, education, healthcare? Besides, we can’t show them just the good stuff. We can’t NOT show them pollution, taxes, budget crises, alcoholism, child pornography or facebook.

I’m sure the ones that genuinly want to help these people have good intentions. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. No matter how good our intentions are, making contact is not in the best interest of these people. They don’t need our view of what is civilized, and they don’t need our vices and virtues. And they make it pretty clear, too.

Leave them alone.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (Star Trek's) Prime Directive is not something worthwhile to be considered here? The representatives of these people (the ones with bows and other kind of weapons that dare to face the outsiders) are stating clearly their policy. Maybe it is us that must get over our desires to intrude supposedly on someone else's benefit.

The representatives of these people are hardly in a situation where they can make an informed decision. Even if they were, they have no right of condemning their children to such life.

Won't anyone think of the children?

/s

Re: The Forbidden Island

#106
post #45

I'm pretty late to leaving a comment, so it won't get a lot of exposure. Let's just leave these people the fuck alone. What threat are they under? Curious assholes like us. There are probably less than 1000 people on that island, all descended from people tens of thousands of years ago. There are more people than that that visit an Apple store on a Tuesday before 2pm. Leave them alone. We don't need to assuage our 10…

I don't know… suppose some highly advanced aliens with for the most part benign intent found us. Would you really like them to "stay the fuck away"? I, for one, would love for our technology to leapfrog ahead centuries, even though it would completely change our culture. The disease part can be handled today. We could go visit them in hazmat suits. And I know I'm being really generous when I'm comparing the modern wo…

> I guess all I'm saying is that not establishing contact is also a choice that we're making on their behalf.

It's also a choice that they are making for themselves. It may or may not be a fully informed choice, but they are making their opinions pretty clear. They certainly aren't coming across as a group of people looking desperately to some outside group to save them from anything.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#107
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't be serious. How many children are you willing to condemn to extremely premature death because of your noble savage illusion? Yes, our 'oh so clever technical ways' are not perfect. But they are so much better. Perhaps these people are just as happy as we are. Even so, their stillborn children are still dead. They almost certainly see more murder and rape. How can you condemn people to living like that, even…

Don't you dare bring out the fucking "oh the children" argument. People die all the fucking time . Its what people do, we die. These people, if the suppositions are to be believed, have been able to survive and reproduce for tens of thousands of years. They don't need your pity or "help". If you sit back for an hour or so and re-read your comment 10-20 times, you'll realize what a Western missionary statement it is.…

> People die all the fucking time. Its what people do, we die.

Yes, and it's a problem! We should be doing everything we can so that people finally STOP DYING. And we should strive especially hard when it's children dying because their parents are too used to everyone dying to ASK FOR HELP.

Now, in some cases it's difficult. We can't do it for everyone just yet. But in this case it's not.

>These people, if the suppositions are to be believed, have been able to survive and reproduce for tens of thousands of years.

Oh, that makes it all right then! Let's stop any kinds of aid, it's not like people will go extinct. Most of them will die, but some will survive and reproduce, and that makes it all right!

Re: The Forbidden Island

#108
post #45

I'm pretty late to leaving a comment, so it won't get a lot of exposure. Let's just leave these people the fuck alone. What threat are they under? Curious assholes like us. There are probably less than 1000 people on that island, all descended from people tens of thousands of years ago. There are more people than that that visit an Apple store on a Tuesday before 2pm. Leave them alone. We don't need to assuage our 10…

I don't know… suppose some highly advanced aliens with for the most part benign intent found us. Would you really like them to "stay the fuck away"? I, for one, would love for our technology to leapfrog ahead centuries, even though it would completely change our culture. The disease part can be handled today. We could go visit them in hazmat suits. And I know I'm being really generous when I'm comparing the modern wo…

Answer 1: Yes, stay the fuck away. If Race XYZ has ability to monitor us without us knowing, thus not interfering with us, sure go ahead. Its not like there's much we could to stop them. But the moment they make their existence known, we're fucked.

At that moment, we aren't the world-conquering successful species we love and proclaim to be. We're the little tribe living on the little island that's quietly being protected by the corrupt government of a minor power in the universal state of nations and empires that we just are now learning about. There's a lot of euphemisms in my last few sentences. Figure them out.

Leave these people alone.

This is kind of in response to your second point. Think about the scale of what we're talking about. We have a massively global, interconnected society of both economy and knowledge comprising billions of people. Even the poorest person in the most desolate parts of the world can, with some inconvenience, get on to the Internet. The people on this island, 400-1000 souls that they be, don't even have the understanding of modern society that the poorest person in the modern world has. Where do you start with that?

So suppose your friendly aliens show up and say "Hi!". What then? We're the people that struggle to maintain ONE space station. We have no extra-terrestrial colonies or establishments. Aliens decide to claim Mars? What are we going to do? The Moon? Its theirs. Pretty much anything outside of our little island Earth is open for claim, and not by us necessarily. The fucked up part is that if you traveled tens or hundreds of light years to get here, Earth itself is probably not the main goal. Its just the natural resources of the system. And what happens in a few hundred years when we decide to get off our asses and go into space? Nothing's left, because fucking Zork claimed it all.

So when you think about all of this together, what options do you present to these people even if they were interested? Medicine, food? Sure. Maybe we can get them vaccinated before the common cold or bird flu wipes them out. Education? Here's some books representing external human history from the perspective of the people supplying the money. Oh, check out our religion too! By the way, did you know that your island is one of several others claimed by India? Its a big island (not really) with over 1 billion people. Too many to count? Don't worry, once your 100 kids have moved to Bangalore to become tech support reps and within 20 years your entire culture has died they'll be able to explain.

I know this is a bit rambly, but hopefully you can see where I'm going. There is no benefit to the people in question to be contacted by us. It only changes and hurts them.

Re: The Forbidden Island

#109
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The representatives of these people are hardly in a situation where they can make an informed decision. Even if they were, they have no right of condemning their children to such life.

Won't anyone think of the children? /s

If someone was raising their children in a similar quality of life in a western society, they would have their children taken away by social security. Do you disagree?

Re: The Forbidden Island

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point, and I think we can all agree that our standards of living are WAY better than theirs, but by OUR standards. Yes, our life expectancy is better, we have better teeth, we are healthier, we get to use all the shiny stuff that comes with our civilization. But those are our standards, not theirs. So there's no 'winner' here. Look at native Americans. They were also 'savages', and we didn't do very well i…

If an asteroid hits the Earth, who do you think will be best equipped to survive? Pretty sure whoever dies in that circumstance is the loser. I'm sure the dinosaurs were happy by their standards as well, but they're basically irrelevant now.

> If an asteroid hits the Earth, who do you think will be best equipped to survive?

Them, obviously. You and I would die a painful death in a few days without sanitation, proper housing and supermarkets. They on the other hand, are perfectly used to manage with extremely scarce resources.

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