Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Police Documents on License Plate Scanners Reveal Mass Tracking

aclu.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 100 posts

Re: Police Documents on License Plate Scanners Reveal Mass Tracking

#61

Post by dredmorbius »

Daishiman wrote: post #33
cortesoft wrote: post #25

I have a personal experience with the harm that ubiquitous recording of location data can bring, even when you don't do anything wrong. When I was in college, I was called to the police station and accused of breaking a glass door in the dorms. I knew NOTHING about this. I told the police I knew nothing about the event, but they continued to press me. They asked me details about where I was that night (many weeks pri…

At the point when they started asking about stuff you didn't know about I would have invoked my right to a lawyer.

Invoking your right to remain silent is sufficient.

Telling the police to direct further inquiries to an attorney doesn't actually necessitate retaining one until they make additional inquiries.

One way to view this is upping the ante. You've made clear that you know your rights, and that they're not going to be able to use you as an easy source.

Of course, if they call your bluff, it's helpful to be able to produce said attorney.

Re: Police Documents on License Plate Scanners Reveal Mass Tracking

#62

Post by achillean »

Wingman4l7 wrote: post #52
achillean wrote: post #17

In case anybody's interested, these license plate scanners can be publicly found on the Internet: http://www.shodanhq.com/search?q=atz+executive And this is how the web interface for such a system looks like: http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/security/2013/05/01/...

That SHODAN search link doesn't return any results...

Ah crap, the above search requires you to be logged-in and have the "Telnet" add-on for your account. Here's a quick alternative that also returns some results, though they all require login over HTTP:

http://www.shodanhq.com/search?q=title%3A%22PIPS+Technology%...

Re: Police Documents on License Plate Scanners Reveal Mass Tracking

#63

Post by homeomorphic »

anigbrowl wrote: post #24

From user qz10 (who seems to have been hellbanned absed on IP): It should be no surprise that this is happening. Give anyone unlimited surveillance power and it will always be abused. I live in a western EU country and have a friend in law enforcement. Last year, he brought me to see our city's traffic surveillance 'control room'. Almost every street corner and traffic junction here has a pole-mounted police camera t…

I've said this before, but I'll do so again: forget about the cars. How long before your friend can type in a person's name and get a similar record of that face's movement based on data the general public continuously records and shares?

I'm sure the authorities' line of defense will go something like "oh but you're not in the database by default!" Then you'll be added as soon as you cross a border, apply for a passport, or get a parking ticket. Time to buy stock of facemask producers...

Re: Police Documents on License Plate Scanners Reveal Mass Tracking

#64

Post by chrischen »

tonywebster wrote: post #36
nullc wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, great so you complain about that and then they solve just that narrow case. Doing so reduces some fringe harassment risks, but actually makes the power inversion worse since then only a privileged minority has access to the data. In practice the stalking/harassment stuff isn't actually happening with any great frequency: The mentally ill people who would do this are generally not competent enough to go on a big…

Despite being in public -- and on public streets -- I think anytime the government is tracking where I go, it should require probable cause and a judge's signature. I believe ALPR circumvents the judicial system. I use my cellphone in public, but it's obvious that the government shouldn't be able to automatically log when and where I placed a call. I use my credit card in public, but the government shouldn't be able…

If you're walking around in public, the government has the right to follow you around. In fact, everyone has the right to follow you around. Having cameras and drones around just means they got better at doing it.

Re: Police Documents on License Plate Scanners Reveal Mass Tracking

#65

Post by chrischen »

cortesoft wrote: post #25

I have a personal experience with the harm that ubiquitous recording of location data can bring, even when you don't do anything wrong. When I was in college, I was called to the police station and accused of breaking a glass door in the dorms. I knew NOTHING about this. I told the police I knew nothing about the event, but they continued to press me. They asked me details about where I was that night (many weeks pri…

Err... actually, what happened to you happened because of faulty and inadequate surveillance. Had they had cameras in the places watching 24/7, they would have seen you DIDN'T do it. It was only because they didn't have surveillance that they had to rely on partial data. If you think about it, had surveillance been even less, and they relied on a random witness who said they saw a guy in a hoodie, and you happen to own a hoodie, you could actually be vindicated by better surveillance. In other words, the truly innocent will always benefit more from such a system than those who are actually guilty. But this assumes the use of surveillance is benevolent. Your example is not actually a good example of why surveillance is bad. It is in fact an example of how it can help. Where surveillance might be bad is in the potential for abuse. It can cause misunderstandings, but even better surveillance resolves that.

Re: Police Documents on License Plate Scanners Reveal Mass Tracking

#66

Post by quantumpotato_ »

Wingman4l7 wrote: post #47
cortesoft wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes... as I said, I know much better now. Of course, invoking my right to a lawyer may have prolonged my experience. Whether the increased risk of being in trouble by talking was greater than the increased time to resolve the incident if I requested a lawyer would have been a tough call to make.

Not to mention the whole "oh, you're asking for a lawyer, an innocent person would just talk to us, you must be our guy" bit.

Which doesn't go so well in court. Oh wait.. forceful decryption of private keys..

Re: Police Documents on License Plate Scanners Reveal Mass Tracking

#67

Post by _delirium »

stfu wrote: post #3

I always wondered on the legality of private license plate scanning. With just a bunch of people cooperating one could pretty much map out all the troop movement throughout the city.

At least one person's been arrested for keeping track of and publicly reporting police movements. Guy in Brooklyn who aggregated information on police movements around Pittsburgh during a protest, and Tweeted them: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/04/elliot-madison-accu...

The charge seems to have been based on not the reporting itself, but a theory that he was conspiring with people committing crimes, like a lookout at a robbery. I wonder if it'd be on more solid ground if it were a website that just always updated with police movements, rather than only in connection with a specific event.

Re: Police Documents on License Plate Scanners Reveal Mass Tracking

#68

Post by eliasmacpherson »

chrischen wrote: post #65
cortesoft wrote: post #25

I have a personal experience with the harm that ubiquitous recording of location data can bring, even when you don't do anything wrong. When I was in college, I was called to the police station and accused of breaking a glass door in the dorms. I knew NOTHING about this. I told the police I knew nothing about the event, but they continued to press me. They asked me details about where I was that night (many weeks pri…

Err... actually, what happened to you happened because of faulty and inadequate surveillance. Had they had cameras in the places watching 24/7, they would have seen you DIDN'T do it. It was only because they didn't have surveillance that they had to rely on partial data. If you think about it, had surveillance been even less, and they relied on a random witness who said they saw a guy in a hoodie, and you happen to o…

I have a personal rule that I am forming, where if the approach to improve something, is to use that something in greater quantities, it is probably a bad thing. e.g. brute force, vendor specific stack, XML, C++, classes, templates, advertising and surveillance.

Have you ever had the misfortune of watching reality TV? You do realise the power of selective editing. Sufficiently motivated camera operators can 'destroy evidence' with no paper trail.

So no, I really don't think more surveillance would necessarily give a better result.

Who would be so crooked as to do such a thing? Faculty to get insurance claim/avoid insurance claim, overloaded cop who just wants to get to 'done' or a promotion.

Re: Police Documents on License Plate Scanners Reveal Mass Tracking

#69

Post by jlgreco »

yen223 wrote: post #42
beedogs wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of how quickly you'd end up in handcuffs if you created a website which tracked every NYPD vehicle in real-time. The laws apply to us, not them.

Some police scanners are open to the public, and I don't think anyone ended up in handcuffs for listening in.

The public listening to police scanners is not new and frightening to those graced with the gift of a monopoly on violence. The unknown has a profound ability to frighten, and fear has a profound ability to inspire violence.

Re: Police Documents on License Plate Scanners Reveal Mass Tracking

#70

Post by nly »

yen223 wrote: post #42
beedogs wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of how quickly you'd end up in handcuffs if you created a website which tracked every NYPD vehicle in real-time. The laws apply to us, not them.

Some police scanners are open to the public, and I don't think anyone ended up in handcuffs for listening in.

I was under the impression police were moving to digital, encrypted broadcasts.
Post reply on HN