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Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

code.google.com

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Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#121

Post by jordanthoms »

philsnow wrote: post #117
w0utert wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> So you want _yet another_ password between the user and his magical experience or whatever ? I find this a pretty weak objection. Do you really want to trade all your stored passwords for the convenience of not having to enter 1 additional password ('my Android backup password') once every one or two years when you activate a new or additional device?? I wonder how this objection rhymes with having logins on 20+ d…

You missed the central part of my argument, so I'll reiterate it here: users don't care about this stuff, and passwords are user-hostile. Google chose to implement this a certain way that works for 99.99% of people. Now, in the 0.01% case, your counter argument still doesn't hold, in my opinion: > Do you really want to trade all your stored passwords for the convenience of not having to enter 1 additional password ('…

Can you give a source for that - I thought WPA2 AES was still quite secure, assuming you use a long random password?

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#122

Post by moxie »

enginous wrote: post #12

What key are you going to encrypt these passwords with? If you were to encrypt passwords in the cloud with a key that's stored on the device, you can't unlock the passwords on a different device (or the same device after flashing), which is the whole point of backing it up in the cloud. If you were to encrypt them with the user's Google Accounts password, the device would need to ask for that password on every startu…

One way to do it would be:

1) Your plaintext password is used to generate two derivative tokens. One for user authentication with Google, and one for encrypting data stored with Google. The authentication password token is PBKDF2(N, password) and the encryption token is PBKDF2(N-1, password). You give Google the authentication token on signup. They are not capable of deriving the encryption token from it, but the user is capable of generating both from the original password.

2) For backup initialization, you prompt the user for their password, calculate the encryption token, generate an ECC keypair, encrypt the private ECC key with the encryption token, and send the encrypted private key to the backup server. This is the last time you'll need to prompt the user for their password until a restore.

3) Each time you wish to send updates to the backup server, you generate a symmetric encryption key, encrypt that using the user's public key, encrypt the data to backup with the symmetric key, and send the encrypted symmetric key and data together to the backup server. This does not require prompting the user for their password, or storing it locally.

4) On restore, you prompt the user for their password, use it to decrypt the private key that you pull down from the backup server, which you can then use to decrypt any encrypted blocks you retrieve as well.

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#123

Post by drivebyacct2 »

brudgers wrote: post #67
jsnell wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to dismiss an argument as "horseshit", you should perhaps offer a compelling alternative. Because your idea of what is going on is frankly ridiculous. It's easy to see the user-experience story for this. Upgrade your phone, buy a tablet, etc, and as by magic all 10 wifi networks you use work without any configuration. No need to type that 32-character nuisance of a WPA2 password again, etc. How lovely…

Encrypt the data on the device. Backup encrypted version in the cloud. Download encrypted backup to new device. Unencrypt on new device. Merge versions on the device. No need for plaintext on Google servers. No way for monetization by Google. Or to put my alternative another way, how much is a data set mapping WiFi passwords to networks for the city of Bejing worth to a foreign intelligence agency or other state-leve…

>Encrypt the data on the device. Backup encrypted version in the cloud. Download encrypted backup to new device. Unencrypt on new device. Merge versions on the device.

Have you even thought, for half a second, about how many thousands of man hours it would take to build that? Let alone trying to build it on top of Android that already has an architecture that doesn't lend itself to that model.

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#124

Post by jusben1369 »

gcb0 wrote: post #64
jusben1369 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I just upgraded from one Android phone to another. Was resigned to the tedious nightmare of setting up multiple WiFi connections again. This feature is fantastic. Not that that negates privacy issues but it is a massive user convenience.

You guys can't be serious. How many APs do you even have to use regularly? And slightly related, do you have two factor enabled on your email or is that the end of modern life convenience as well?

I am serious and please don't call me Shirley.

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#125

Post by baq »

mik3y wrote: post #115
brudgers wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I look at the money. Google made $10 billion last year. In a cyber-war, how much would the Kremlin pay to disrupt every Chinese WiFi network to which an Android device has a current password? In a shooting war, how much would the US pay? Keep in mind that the modern battlefield increasingly uses ordinary data devices particularly in counter-insurgency operations. Jim McDonnell, Donald Douglas, Jack Northrup and Leroy…

I look at the money. In a cyber-war, how much would the Kremlin pay to disrupt every Chinese WiFi network to which an Android device has a current password? Do you think Larry Page can be bought? I'm serious: You need to consider the way Google is run before deciding if any of these theories are plausible. This is a company which has a history of spurning money-making opportunities in favor of some higher ideal (ofte…

...but the NSA most likely has access to this data right now, for free.

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#126

Post by vectorpush »

babesh wrote: post #114
vectorpush wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that trusting google with wifi passwords is about as benign as it gets (especially if you already trust them with everything else) but the reason we encourage password encryption isn't because we don't trust the service provider, it's because we don't trust hackers or unethical employees. There are a lot of people who would love to get their hands on that data.

Not benign at all. Read the story about how some Facebook administrator challenged Facebookers to hack into Facebook. The way they did it was to drive by his home and impersonate his home wireless router. My understanding is that once you do that, you can do man in the middle attacks. Example: Oh you thought you were accessing Facebook, bank, stock, tax... oh you are... but first you are passing along your password t…

Fair enough; it's not really benign, only in comparison to all the other data google stores and aggregates regarding its customers (imagine a map of Google Now data)

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#127

Post by nly »

babesh wrote: post #120

No need to belabor the point given the many examples beyond this one. If you want security, you're not going with Android. If you want configurability, you're not going with iOS. Android: slurping phone numbers, texting behind the scenes on your behalf, etc... iOS: no access to apps that Apple doesn't approve, no replacement of built-in apps with third-party apps, etc... These systems were not built exactly with your…

> Android: slurping phone numbers, texting behind the scenes on your behalf, etc...

Debatable. If you install something like Permissions Explorer you can see which apps access your contacts and/or texts. It's generally a small list. And the Google sync features can be disabled.

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#128

Post by brudgers »

mik3y wrote: post #115
brudgers wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I look at the money. Google made $10 billion last year. In a cyber-war, how much would the Kremlin pay to disrupt every Chinese WiFi network to which an Android device has a current password? In a shooting war, how much would the US pay? Keep in mind that the modern battlefield increasingly uses ordinary data devices particularly in counter-insurgency operations. Jim McDonnell, Donald Douglas, Jack Northrup and Leroy…

I look at the money. In a cyber-war, how much would the Kremlin pay to disrupt every Chinese WiFi network to which an Android device has a current password? Do you think Larry Page can be bought? I'm serious: You need to consider the way Google is run before deciding if any of these theories are plausible. This is a company which has a history of spurning money-making opportunities in favor of some higher ideal (ofte…

My opinion about Larry Page's price is that it depends upon who is buying and what they are offering. An offer similar to one from the Kremlin which is easy to refuse might be one he cannot refuse from Fort Meade.

But lest my meaning is misunderstood, an offer from Fort Meade might be one Mr. Page gladly accepts as a US national - I certainly have no more reason to question his patriotism than to believe it to be partisan in the extreme.

Even removing patriotism from the equation, developing and maintaining good relations with governments and their agencies involved across national borders probably makes sound business sense for a company of Google's size. And I have little doubt that Mr. Page places substantial value on international business opportunities.

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#129

Post by jlgreco »

moxie wrote: post #122
enginous wrote: post #12

What key are you going to encrypt these passwords with? If you were to encrypt passwords in the cloud with a key that's stored on the device, you can't unlock the passwords on a different device (or the same device after flashing), which is the whole point of backing it up in the cloud. If you were to encrypt them with the user's Google Accounts password, the device would need to ask for that password on every startu…

One way to do it would be: 1) Your plaintext password is used to generate two derivative tokens. One for user authentication with Google, and one for encrypting data stored with Google. The authentication password token is PBKDF2(N, password) and the encryption token is PBKDF2(N-1, password). You give Google the authentication token on signup. They are not capable of deriving the encryption token from it, but the use…

How do you handle password changes? Download the encrypted ECC private key, decrypt it with the old password, re-encrypt it with the new one, then upload it again? Is there an easier way?

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#130

Post by socillion »

mik3y wrote: post #112
OGC wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because your idea of what is going on is frankly ridiculous. Really? > It's easy to see the user-experience story for this. It's even easier to see how handy millions of wifi passwords might come in handy if you already have the information about the wifi networks you got from war-driving (street view). You now have access to millions of (private) networks all over the world which you previously had not.

It's even easier to see how handy millions of wifi passwords might come in handy if you already have the information about the wifi networks you got from war-driving (street view). Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Talk to a real live Googler (they exist!). Any one of them will tell you that: (a) the war driving thing was one engineer's massive fuckup that was never wanted for any product, and the data…

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Google collects information on wireless networks for a very specific purpose - determining location to speed up or replace GPS. Skyhook Wireless is another company that sells the information obtained from wardriving.

https://support.google.com/maps/answer/1725632?hl=en

Are you saying this service was shut down despite all indications to the contrary, or are you disputing the method used to collect this data?

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