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Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

code.google.com

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Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#61

Post by leoedin »

brudgers wrote: post #32
enginous wrote: post #12

What key are you going to encrypt these passwords with? If you were to encrypt passwords in the cloud with a key that's stored on the device, you can't unlock the passwords on a different device (or the same device after flashing), which is the whole point of backing it up in the cloud. If you were to encrypt them with the user's Google Accounts password, the device would need to ask for that password on every startu…

Horseshit. Setting up a password for an Android device only needs to be done once for each device->network pairing. The reuse of Wifi passwords across devices is an edge case given the predominate ownership pattern of Android devices - i.e. most people have a phone that runs Android and no other Android device. Google's scheme allows them to harvest the passwords to a vast number of wireless networks. Google has harv…

You give large corporations way too much credit. There's no evidence beyond your conspiracy theories that this is a feature designed for anything other than convenience (one which I and many others in the thread have found to be quite convenient).

Not every feature in Android is designed to be monetised. Google develop Android with the intent that users will use their app store/click on Google provided ads. They can only do that if they are seen to be offering a competitive, feature full product. The cloud-based syncing of your phone configuration is one of those features.

Having worked in various large organisations (including ones which are definitely part of the military-industrial complex) I can say wholeheartedly that there is no grand conspiracy. Most people, wherever they work, want to produce the best product they can.

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#62

Post by oceanstone »

Nogwater wrote: post #29
Kurts wrote: post #4

You can turn it off if you like: Settings > Privacy > Backup my data, backup application data, Wi-fi passwords, and other settings to Google servers. Every few months someone rediscovers that Google also syncs Wifi credentials between devices (perhaps when logging into a new device and finding it tethers itself nicely to the network on its own). It's a matter of convenience, Wifi passwords are only applicable at a ce…

Hmm. That path doesn't seem to work on my Nexus 4 running Android 4.2.2. The closest I could find is Settings > Backup & reset > Backup my data (Backup app data, Wi-Fi passwords, and other settings to Google services). Tapping this, it says "Stop backing up your Wi-Fi passwords, bookmarks, other settings, and app data, plus erase all copies on Google servers?". So, it sounds like it's all or nothing.

Thanks, that path you posted applies to my phone too. It looks like the Backup setting was already off for me. It might be one of those settings that you are prompted about while setting up the phone.

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#63

Post by gcb0 »

enginous wrote: post #12

What key are you going to encrypt these passwords with? If you were to encrypt passwords in the cloud with a key that's stored on the device, you can't unlock the passwords on a different device (or the same device after flashing), which is the whole point of backing it up in the cloud. If you were to encrypt them with the user's Google Accounts password, the device would need to ask for that password on every startu…

Why do you even have to backup a password? It's idiotic from every way you look at it

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#64

Post by gcb0 »

jusben1369 wrote: post #53
untog wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

an act which can be in no way cast as user convenience. It's very convenient to me. I have both an Android phone and tablet. I've also switched Android phones multiple times- it's been quite gratifying to return to a city I visited three years ago and have it automatically connect to the WiFi hotspots I used back then.

Yes. I just upgraded from one Android phone to another. Was resigned to the tedious nightmare of setting up multiple WiFi connections again. This feature is fantastic. Not that that negates privacy issues but it is a massive user convenience.

You guys can't be serious.

How many APs do you even have to use regularly?

And slightly related, do you have two factor enabled on your email or is that the end of modern life convenience as well?

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#65

Post by chrisrhoden »

brudgers wrote: post #32
enginous wrote: post #12

What key are you going to encrypt these passwords with? If you were to encrypt passwords in the cloud with a key that's stored on the device, you can't unlock the passwords on a different device (or the same device after flashing), which is the whole point of backing it up in the cloud. If you were to encrypt them with the user's Google Accounts password, the device would need to ask for that password on every startu…

Horseshit. Setting up a password for an Android device only needs to be done once for each device->network pairing. The reuse of Wifi passwords across devices is an edge case given the predominate ownership pattern of Android devices - i.e. most people have a phone that runs Android and no other Android device. Google's scheme allows them to harvest the passwords to a vast number of wireless networks. Google has harv…

Yeah, I mean, this simply isn't true.

Google's pretty clear on their motivations here. It's the same reason that they back up what you have set as your background. It's not about multiple devices, it's about fungible devices.

The result is that you log in to any fresh android device and in a few minutes it's automatically configured itself. If you wipe your device, or lose it, or whatever, replacement cost is the biggest issue.

As for the harvesting of signal strength and name of wireless networks, the user convenience is that Google Maps will work even when you don't have clear line-of-sight to GPS satellites in most places. That's pretty darn convenient.

I think it's bad that they have this data, because the potential for abuse is large, but please don't suggest that there aren't clear and benevolent reasons for these decisions. It's extremely rare that people do things with obviously dubious motives. This is clearly not one of those cases.

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#66

Post by flipperypokery »

jsnell wrote: post #51
brudgers wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Horseshit. Setting up a password for an Android device only needs to be done once for each device->network pairing. The reuse of Wifi passwords across devices is an edge case given the predominate ownership pattern of Android devices - i.e. most people have a phone that runs Android and no other Android device. Google's scheme allows them to harvest the passwords to a vast number of wireless networks. Google has harv…

If you're going to dismiss an argument as "horseshit", you should perhaps offer a compelling alternative. Because your idea of what is going on is frankly ridiculous. It's easy to see the user-experience story for this. Upgrade your phone, buy a tablet, etc, and as by magic all 10 wifi networks you use work without any configuration. No need to type that 32-character nuisance of a WPA2 password again, etc. How lovely…

Most people really have 10 different WiFi networks? I have two. Home and work. Who has 10?

Apple solved this by supporting local backups. My phone backs up to my computer. When I restore to a new device, the backup goes with it.

When I set up a completely new device -- which happens only once every couple of years -- I set up WiFi again. I've never, ever, ever thought "oh wow, setting up WiFi is just So Hard! I wish Apple would store my private WiFI password on their servers by default without telling me first!".

iCloud backup does store your data on Apple's servers, but it's opt-in, and it makes it quite clear what will be stored.

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#67

Post by brudgers »

jsnell wrote: post #51
brudgers wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Horseshit. Setting up a password for an Android device only needs to be done once for each device->network pairing. The reuse of Wifi passwords across devices is an edge case given the predominate ownership pattern of Android devices - i.e. most people have a phone that runs Android and no other Android device. Google's scheme allows them to harvest the passwords to a vast number of wireless networks. Google has harv…

If you're going to dismiss an argument as "horseshit", you should perhaps offer a compelling alternative. Because your idea of what is going on is frankly ridiculous. It's easy to see the user-experience story for this. Upgrade your phone, buy a tablet, etc, and as by magic all 10 wifi networks you use work without any configuration. No need to type that 32-character nuisance of a WPA2 password again, etc. How lovely…

Encrypt the data on the device. Backup encrypted version in the cloud. Download encrypted backup to new device. Unencrypt on new device. Merge versions on the device.

No need for plaintext on Google servers. No way for monetization by Google.

Or to put my alternative another way, how much is a data set mapping WiFi passwords to networks for the city of Bejing worth to a foreign intelligence agency or other state-level actor? An answer in terms of dollars or 1000 clicks is equally acceptable.

As an alternative, how much is such a data set for Redmond worth to Google?

For extra credit, determine the value of each data set if includes historic data on password changes, changes to the individual password repositories of each user, and changes to the densities of WiFi networks at specific locations.

In the end, it comes down to money in Google's bank account, not delighting users (see Reader). Since Google does not directly profit from the sale of nearly all Android devices, the burden for the thesis of delight is to show an alternative mechanism by which Google directly profits from the plain text storage of passwords.

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#68

Post by Karunamon »

gcb0 wrote: post #64
jusben1369 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I just upgraded from one Android phone to another. Was resigned to the tedious nightmare of setting up multiple WiFi connections again. This feature is fantastic. Not that that negates privacy issues but it is a massive user convenience.

You guys can't be serious. How many APs do you even have to use regularly? And slightly related, do you have two factor enabled on your email or is that the end of modern life convenience as well?

>How many APs do you even have to use regularly?

Let's see, I've got a private side and a guest side wifi at home, no less than three at work depending on location, the motel I usually end up booked in for trips, local bars and restaurants.

So i'd say.. probably 10ish in a given month? Sometimes more?

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#69

Post by Nursie »

enginous wrote: post #12

What key are you going to encrypt these passwords with? If you were to encrypt passwords in the cloud with a key that's stored on the device, you can't unlock the passwords on a different device (or the same device after flashing), which is the whole point of backing it up in the cloud. If you were to encrypt them with the user's Google Accounts password, the device would need to ask for that password on every startu…

Perhaps it's a trade-off that shouldn't be on by default.

I didn't even know this happened until a friend bought a new device and it suddenly knew everything. Didn't bother him, did bother me.

Re: Android saves wifi passwords in plaintext to the cloud

#70

Post by kryptiskt »

Kurts wrote: post #16
mikhailt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Convenience isn't an excuse to not encrypt security data, it does not matter if it is a limited to a few areas where it could be exploited. If Google (any companies, including Apple) can not be trusted to protect such information, they should not be offering it in the first place. If it can be exploited, it should be protected as much as it can be. We all saw what happened with Google's StreetView cars capturing the…

It's more than "unlikely", it's ridiculous. It's the longest way around and possibly the stupidest route to get onto someone's Wifi network.

It's a stupid way to get into a specific network, but it's a pretty convenient way to get access to everybody's networks. Sure, it would be hard to hack Google, but the prize for doing so would be pretty nice. And if the systems are impregnable, there are always ways in that relies on the human factor. Humans can be bribed and/or threatened.

Or if you're law enforcement, the knowledge of the existence of the resource is enough.

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