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Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

m.guardian.co.uk

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Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#181

Post by btilly »

tokenadult wrote: post #65

It's always interesting to me that as a new statement from Snowden to the press comes out, most comments on Hacker News take him totally at his word, and assume that his interpretation of events and policy is by far the interpretation most likely to be true. Because I was already past Snowden's current age and current experience level in living in other countries by the time Snowden was born, I see a lot of holes and…

I hope he is correct that the information that he claims to have extracted from NSA servers cannot be extracted from him against his will, but I don't assume that to be true in the absence of evidence. That's an extraordinary claim, so it requires extraordinary evidence.

That's actually not an extraordinary claim. It is standard operating procedure to teach people in the military how to do this, and the techniques are widely known. Here is how my brother (who received this training before serving in Vietnam explained it).

The first thing to realize is that you will break. When you break, you will say whatever you think will make the torturer happy. Once you have broken, you will no longer know what reality is.

So be a wimp. Pretend to break early. Feed the torturer enough interesting false information (with some truth mixed in) to get them interested. When you break for real they will continue to ask about the false leads, and you'll tell them whatever you imagine they want to hear. Nobody - including you - will have any way to sort out truth from lies.

This is, of course, just theory for me. However I'm assured that it works. And our standard training procedures include practice being tortured to drill in the point.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#182

Post by aetherson »

anigbrowl wrote: post #157
aetherson wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I understand the sentiment that says, "I'd prefer it if Snowden were possessed of infinite strength, that he should be willing to suffer years of imprisonment while speaking truth to power," I don't understand the sentiment that says, "So I'll dismiss everything he says given that he doesn't have limitless moral courage." I note that the same standard never seems to apply to the other side of the argument. You…

Actually, I do hear a lot of people who reflexively disbelieve anything Obama says; also, you're making a terribly flawed analogy. A more appropriate one would be to say you didn't trust anything Obama said on the subject of drug policy because he used cocaine etc.

I hear a lot of people who reflexively disbelieve anything Obama says too: it's because they've decided he's a liar, not because he lacks the moral courage necessary to turn himself in for his admitted drug use.

Digression:

I do not myself care that Obama used drugs. I think those drugs should have been legal. I think it was courageous of Obama to admit to drug use even if he did so in a way that did not lead to legal repercussions.

But I also do not care that Snowden violated the law in his whistleblowing. I think his whistleblowing should have been legal. And I think it was courageous of Snowden to blow the whistle, even if he did so in a way that did not lead to the most severe legal repercussions possible.

End digression.

But no, I do not think that I made an analogy, nor that my observation was flawed. People who say, "I won't listen to Snowden unless he turns himself in" are not making an argument about Snowden's facts, they're making an argument about his character. They're saying, "I won't listen to Snowden because he isn't willing to suffer every possible negative consequence of his actions." It doesn't matter if his actions were related to the spying or not.

Those same people never demand the same of Obama (or any of the other government representatives). Those representatives can, and do, in fact, grant themselves and their allies full immunity from negative repercussions, and are still treated respectfully. This is hypocrisy on the part of those who demand that Snowden turn himself in.

And finally, if you want an example of Obama's less-than-perfect moral character that directly relates to the matter under discussion, there is his claim that he was against warrantless wiretaps, and campaigning as someone who was against them.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#183

Post by lttlrck »

pvnick wrote: post #3

"Further, no intelligence service - not even our own - has the capacity to compromise the secrets I continue to protect. While it has not been reported in the media, one of my specializations was to teach our people at DIA how to keep such information from being compromised even in the highest threat counter-intelligence environments (i.e. China). You may rest easy knowing I cannot be coerced into revealing that info…

'not even our own'

Odd choice of words. Maybe he doesn't consider himself stateless after all.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#184

Post by twoodfin »

mwerd wrote: post #171
Kylekramer wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have primary documents supporting a very small subset of what he says. Most of the claims, including the more extraordinary ones such as he can wiretap anyone in the world including Barack Obama's personal email from his desk, remain undocumented.

Snowden's claim regarding wiretapping Obama is corroborated by other NSA whisteblowers. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/20/russ-tice-nsa-obama...

You're missing the point: Nobody's denying that with the right internal authorization, the NSA can tap any phone line they like. What's up for debate (since Snowden has provided no evidence) is the claim that Snowden could do it all by his lonesome, with no oversight or approval.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#185

Post by jessaustin »

tokenadult wrote: post #65

It's always interesting to me that as a new statement from Snowden to the press comes out, most comments on Hacker News take him totally at his word, and assume that his interpretation of events and policy is by far the interpretation most likely to be true. Because I was already past Snowden's current age and current experience level in living in other countries by the time Snowden was born, I see a lot of holes and…

The high degree of cooperation many countries appear to be giving the United States so far...

This is actually a serious mistake from a USA national security perspective, in that it ensures that whatever info Snowden has and fails to secure will be given directly to rival nations. If those in charge were worried primarily about national security, they would have let him run to a normal country like Finland or Chile or New Zealand, where Snowden could have been observed reliably. If he ever progressed from criticism of domestic surveillance to active assistance of rogue states, the host nation could have brought its own charges.

That those in charge didn't allow this tells us one of two things: A) they're really not very good at their jobs or B) their primary concern is not Snowden revealing secrets which will harm the USA, but rather secrets that will harm their own careers. It were ever thus.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#186

Post by jessaustin »

bobo1357 wrote: post #66
inzax wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really trust the supreme court these days? 7 men and women designed to decide the fate of our country? also, the supreme court has no say in this. Its the fisa court....

If we're not following the rule of law, what laws should we follow? Who should interpret our laws? The Supreme Court has the power to issue an order called a “writ of mandamus” to deal with lower courts that overstep their legal authority.

What the fuck is the holdup?

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#187

Post by twoodfin »

SolarNet wrote: post #129
btbuildem wrote: post #14

"identify, remove from office and bring to justice those officials who have abused power" This, here, is the crux of the matter. Drag into the light the parasites that consume the living flesh of this society.

I hope people, and indeed the senator, realizes that the people he is talking about are senators and congressmen, not the president who did his duty and executed the 20 million dollar PRISM budget forced on him by congress.

Huh? There's no law or budget that requires PRISM. Any of these programs could be shut down with one phone call from the Oval Office, and Congress couldn't say boo. That's sort of the reason they're Constitutional in the first place: The executive has broad national security powers.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#188

Post by jessaustin »

jmathai wrote: post #80
dantheman wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very simple way to achieve something like this is to generate a random password, print it out and give half to someone else. Then you need 2 people to access the file.

It doesn't then take much torture to extract the other person's name. Then a little more torture for the other party to get the missing piece of the puzzle.

Why would he know their name? Why wouldn't they have a similar group of people-switches arranged in a hierarchy?

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#189

Post by jessaustin »

lttlrck wrote: post #183
pvnick wrote: post #3

"Further, no intelligence service - not even our own - has the capacity to compromise the secrets I continue to protect. While it has not been reported in the media, one of my specializations was to teach our people at DIA how to keep such information from being compromised even in the highest threat counter-intelligence environments (i.e. China). You may rest easy knowing I cannot be coerced into revealing that info…

'not even our own' Odd choice of words. Maybe he doesn't consider himself stateless after all.

He's still loyal to the USA. Even though its leaders have betrayed him along with our ideals.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#190

Post by SolarNet »

twoodfin wrote: post #187
SolarNet wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope people, and indeed the senator, realizes that the people he is talking about are senators and congressmen, not the president who did his duty and executed the 20 million dollar PRISM budget forced on him by congress.

Huh? There's no law or budget that requires PRISM. Any of these programs could be shut down with one phone call from the Oval Office, and Congress couldn't say boo. That's sort of the reason they're Constitutional in the first place: The executive has broad national security powers.

Not since nixon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Budget_and_Impoun...

Also, he must execute the law faithfully, if the Congress gives him the power to use secret courts to wire-tap people he is expected to use it to it's fullest extent, to do otherwise would be illegal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_State...

PRISM is the president faithfully executing the laws set by congress, between the 8 billion dollar NSA budget and the Patriot Act, they are responsible.

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