Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey • Hacker News Board

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#151

Post by chaz » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 9:18 PM UTC

phaus wrote: post #52

untog wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To offer an opposing view: I cannot be coerced into revealing that information, even under torture. That is a huge claim. I do not imagine that his training involved being tortured to make sure. If he's wrong, there could be dire consequences for the US. You might even say his ego is writing checks his body can't cash.

Such training does not exist anywhere on this planet. Edit: I already mentioned SERE training in a higher level post. It's pretty intense, but still, the most valuable lesson you learn is that everyone will end up talking. I was simply commenting on the possibility of a person resisting torture. If that person has some sort of safety mechanism in place, the torturer might not be able to get the information he wants,…

This was an interesting read: http://www.quora.com/Torture/Whats-the-best-thing-to-do-if-b...

> You'll break. Instantly. So spare yourself the agony. Just spill the beans.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#152

Post by anigbrowl » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 9:22 PM UTC

alan_cx wrote: post #104

tokenadult wrote: post #65

It's always interesting to me that as a new statement from Snowden to the press comes out, most comments on Hacker News take him totally at his word, and assume that his interpretation of events and policy is by far the interpretation most likely to be true. Because I was already past Snowden's current age and current experience level in living in other countries by the time Snowden was born, I see a lot of holes and…

I fail to see why you find this so "interesting". If Snowden lied or exaggerated, the USG would ensure that every media outlet shouted about if from the mountain tops until no one couldn't know. Snowden would be destroyed as a liar. If the USG lie or exaggerates, Snowden cannot ensure the same. Additionally, government is based on lies, lying is what government does. The ratio of power and information control is not…

If Snowden lied or exaggerated, the USG would ensure that every media outlet shouted about if from the mountain tops until no one couldn't know.

That would not necessarily be good opsec. The government might consider that it's better to have the general public believe it's omniscient while being more realistic with diplomats; or it might simply decide that correcting specific inaccuracies would give too much information away.

Additionally, government is based on lies, lying is what government does.

Well, no bias there then.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#153

Post by Terretta » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 9:22 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #65

It's always interesting to me that as a new statement from Snowden to the press comes out, most comments on Hacker News take him totally at his word, and assume that his interpretation of events and policy is by far the interpretation most likely to be true. Because I was already past Snowden's current age and current experience level in living in other countries by the time Snowden was born, I see a lot of holes and…

> quite a few experienced national leaders with very different constituencies to represent agree that there is more harm in Snowden being on the loose

Or, more plausibly, these leaders also have something to hide from their ostensibly democratic constituencies and would find it beneficial for any more potential Snowdens of their own to think twice.

The recent articles about UK, France, etc. surveillance and data gathering bear this out.

Manwhile, leaders in more authoritarian governments or in weak sham/corrupt democracies are less concerned with Snowdens (people already corrupt or cowed), and more interested in taking US's tiresome high handedness down a peg.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#154

Post by grandalf » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 9:26 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #65

It's always interesting to me that as a new statement from Snowden to the press comes out, most comments on Hacker News take him totally at his word, and assume that his interpretation of events and policy is by far the interpretation most likely to be true. Because I was already past Snowden's current age and current experience level in living in other countries by the time Snowden was born, I see a lot of holes and…

While I agree that some of Snowden's actions are a bit hard to read, my take has been that he's doing a difficult thing, is under a lot of stress, and is following largely uncharted territory.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#155

Post by anigbrowl » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 9:28 PM UTC

pvnick wrote: post #55

tokenadult wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he comes off as naive and more than a little pompous, but I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. This is my take too. If he had had more knowledge about the historical background of the other countries he has visited, and especially if he had STRONG knowledge of another language, he might view the position of the United States in these matters a bit differently, and might resolve the trade-offs about what t…

Your statement is completely nonsensical. The whole point is we have primary documents supporting what he says. His personality has nothing to do with those claims. Greenwald and Snowden have a 100% accuracy rate regarding these leaks, and your comment comes off as very head-stuck-in-the-sand-y.

Greenwald and Snowden have a 100% accuracy rate regarding these leaks

You seem like the sort of fellow who ought to own a bridge.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#156

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 9:28 PM UTC

bobo1357 wrote: post #113

dragonwriter wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what is says. Particularly, that period you put in isn't where the sentence ends, the full sentence is: "The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish ." Further, the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court is defined in Art. III, Sec. 2: "In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public minist…

The Supreme Court has ultimate appellate jurisdiction over all federal courts and over state court cases involving issues of federal law.

Incorrect. The appellate jurisdiction of the Supreme Court is "confined within such limits as Congress sees fit to describe." The Francis Wright, 105 U.S. 381 (1881), at 386.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#157

Post by anigbrowl » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 9:31 PM UTC

aetherson wrote: post #130

tokenadult wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he comes off as naive and more than a little pompous, but I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. This is my take too. If he had had more knowledge about the historical background of the other countries he has visited, and especially if he had STRONG knowledge of another language, he might view the position of the United States in these matters a bit differently, and might resolve the trade-offs about what t…

While I understand the sentiment that says, "I'd prefer it if Snowden were possessed of infinite strength, that he should be willing to suffer years of imprisonment while speaking truth to power," I don't understand the sentiment that says, "So I'll dismiss everything he says given that he doesn't have limitless moral courage." I note that the same standard never seems to apply to the other side of the argument. You…

Actually, I do hear a lot of people who reflexively disbelieve anything Obama says; also, you're making a terribly flawed analogy. A more appropriate one would be to say you didn't trust anything Obama said on the subject of drug policy because he used cocaine etc.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#158

Post by jlgaddis » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 9:32 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #65

It's always interesting to me that as a new statement from Snowden to the press comes out, most comments on Hacker News take him totally at his word, and assume that his interpretation of events and policy is by far the interpretation most likely to be true. Because I was already past Snowden's current age and current experience level in living in other countries by the time Snowden was born, I see a lot of holes and…

> That's an extraordinary claim, so it requires extraordinary evidence.

Most of what Mr. Snowden has revealed has been pretty damn extraordinary. Upon first hearing many of his claims, I'll admit that I (more often than not) thought "no, surely not" and, shortly thereafter, government officials quickly came forward to deny many of his claims.

Then, almost without fail, Mr. Greenwald would publicize documents backing Mr. Snowden's claims and showing the government as the liars.

What it comes down to is, simply, trust and credibility. To me, at this point, Mr. Snowden has eons more credibility -- and I trust him much more -- than the United States government.

In the absence of evidence, I am certainly more willing to take him at his word than I am the various government officials who have proven themselves liars time and again over the last six weeks or so.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#159

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 9:34 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #46

eli wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he comes off as naive and more than a little pompous, but I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. Either way, if he really wants the focus back on the documents, he should probably write fewer letters about his beliefs, his security, and his personal situation.

I think he comes off as naive and more than a little pompous, but I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. This is my take too. If he had had more knowledge about the historical background of the other countries he has visited, and especially if he had STRONG knowledge of another language, he might view the position of the United States in these matters a bit differently, and might resolve the trade-offs about what t…

>I would take Snowden's claims more seriously in general if he were on United States soil

There is a long list of former gov't employees who went through those channels and found them sorely lacking. In other words, people who are in a position to know better, who disagree with you. Radack, Drake, and Binney, to name a few.

>Right now, part of what Snowden is saying with ghostwriting help from Wikileaks is not making sense.

You sound a lot like Walter Pincus, whose employer had to print a retraction[1] over the baseless accusations he made in this column: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/questi...

I suggest you have a look at that story from a critical perspective: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nsa-spying-scandal...

[1]Correction:

A previous version of this Fine Print column incorrectly said that an article by journalist Glenn Greenwald was written for the WikiLeaks Press blog.The article, about filmmaker Laura Poitras and WikiLeaks being targeted by U.S. officials, was written for the online publication Salon and first appeared April 8, 2012. Its appearance on the WikiLeaks Press blog two days later was a reposting. This version has been corrected.

A previous version of the column also asserted that WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, during a May 29 interview with Democracy Now, “previewed” the story that Greenwald wrote for the Guardian newspaper about the Obama administration’s involvement in the collection of Americans’ phone records. There is no evidence that Assange had advance knowledge of the story; the assertion was based on a previously published interview in which Assange discussed an earlier surveillance project involving the collection of phone records.The assertion has been taken out of this version.

The column also does not mention Snowden’s past work in the intelligence community. The lack of this context may have created the impression that Snowden’s work for Booz Allen Hamilton gave him his first access to classified surveillance programs.

Re: Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

#160

Post by samstave » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 9:35 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #132

chc wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would take Snowden's claims more seriously in general if he were on United States soil preparing to face trial for his alleged wrongdoing, ready to bring forward any defenses he thinks he has to possible criminal charges. So in order for you to take Snowden's claims seriously, he has to either claim that what he did is legal or willingly go to prison for the rest of his life? That seems pretty irrational.

Martin Luther King, Jr. took a greater risk than that. So did the several freedom fighters in Taiwan I know personally, some of whom did hard prison time for leading peaceful public protests before Taiwan democratized. It takes people with a lot of courage to change tough situations.

You are aware that MLK was assassinated by the USG, are you not?

Anyone saying that Snowden should be in the US "awaiting trial" is a naive utter moron.