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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#461

Post by grannyg00se »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #442
grannyg00se wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is a higher level of humanity to aspire to than yelling at one another like cavemen OR Machiavellian passive-aggressive faux-politeness." Faux-politeness is exactly what Linus is criticising here and he definitely doesn't engage in it. And there is no evidence of him yelling like a caveman at this person. Are you referring to some other example? I'd like to see that. The only time I've seen him yelling and ful…

I'm referring to faux-politeness as Linus's strawman alternative to being rude. It's a false dichotomy. And when I talk about behaving like a caveman, I should be clear that I'm generalizing the behavior he's trying to legitimize. I don't claim to have an in depth knowledge of his behavior outside of the handful of times things he's written have popped up here or on Slashdot. For all I know, these are isolated incide…

"I think it's behavior he should be working on improving"

Why? There are plenty of things that people can work toward improving. He doesn't see his behaviour as something that requires improvement.

You think rudeness is morally unacceptable. He doesn't. You are free to disagree and never work with him if you so choose. But you can't legitimately claim authority on the better way based solely on personal opinion.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#462

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

nknighthb wrote: post #424
Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It" was referring to being publicly berated from your reply. Berating is angry criticism so I think it's fairly specific. Ultimately it depends on what you're trying to achieve when you're talking to someone. There might be occasions when being shamed in front of the team is the best thing for the person but I'd suggest that they're few and far between. As a manager if I act angrily towards you then regardless of wh…

I trust no one to be unbiased and fair at all times. I trust no one to be conscious of their own prejudices. I trust no one to be omniscient or infallible or to have even a reasonably accurate memory of past events. And I particularly distrust them in these matters when they are angry. These individual failings cannot be wholly eradicated from anyone, but they can be compensated for by the involvement of the team. Yo…

I don't believe anyone to be infallible (including myself) but I find that my broadly trusting people who've shown themselves to be trustworthy I gain a lot (not having to cover my arse, gratitude from those who I trust - which I've had them comment positively on, the friendships it creates). On the occasions it's let me down it's not come close to outweighing the benefits I had up to that point.

And yes, I've lost my temper twice and will probably do so again but as with those times when it has happened in the past I'll apologise, attempt to repair the damage and move on.

No-one needs to be perfect and unbiased, for the most part your flawed best with good intentions is plenty. If you find yourself working with people who don't have good intentions then maybe the level of suspicion is fair enough but personally I'd get the hell out of there rather than work in somewhere that poisonous - 20 years working has taught me that it's simply not necessary to put up with places like that and that there are plenty of alternatives.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#463

Post by Borogravia »

riggins wrote: post #327
columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

I love what Linus is saying here. I feel like some people haven't really internalized the lesson of the schoolyard saying 'sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me'. I think that saying is deeper than it seems at first blush. It's a reminder that we are 100% in control of how we react to words. We choose how we react to words. You can always choose. Anyone who complains about language is imp…

Yet he flips out when people use harmless little words to criticize him for being a huge prick.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#464

Post by shubb »

CrLf wrote: post #269
shubb wrote: post #135

Agreement not to be nasty to people mostly protects people in a weak position. It's a long time since that has been Linus, so it's not surprising he's forgotten the merits of it. Say 'Sarah Sharp' was hired by her company as a kernel developer. She knows that, if she makes a commit and Linus doesn't like it, he will write up what she has done like it was terrible (rather than slightly careless, or even just different…

That's a totally ludicrous argument. There are plenty of assholes in the open source world, some of them are even at the helm of pretty significant projects. Linus, however, does not seem to be one of them, merely for the fact that his "abuse" seems to always be accompanied by very strong arguments based on actual facts. You are suggesting that getting a shake down from Linus is a bad thing. Well, only if you have no…

>That's a totally ludicrous argument.

In hindsight yeah. The catastrophic 'could be homeless' stuff was deliberate, and I thought it was a good idea at the time, but it's not realistic.

In tech, things are made by teams, and some people have a lot of power over others. If the others are young, they might be more vulnerable because they would find it harder to up and get work elsewhere, and because they haven't developed belief in their skills yet.

I don't really care about Linus and Sarah. But having been on the wrong end of a dysfunctional senior the odd time, stopping bullying in the workplace is important for productivity and making going to work a nice thing.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#465

Post by mpyne »

xradionut wrote: post #447
mpyne wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's just it. Equanimity in the face of psychological pressure is a valuable skill to have. But it is a skill, it's not free, and the military spends a lot of effort on weeding people out who cannot develop that skill by the end of basic, intermediate, and advanced training schools. And for those of us on the outside, we wouldn't tell a random developer that he should crank out 40 push-ups to prove his worth,…

I'd rather have people express how they feel directly instead of "professionally" backstab or marginalize me. And the military doesn't breed "aggressiveness" outside of specific services and roles that require it. It does demand an inordinate "attention to detail" due to the fact lives are on the line, whether that be on ships, planes or just normal activities. This "attention to detail" is also seen among other prof…

> I'd rather have people express how they feel directly instead of "professionally" backstab or marginalize me.

Don't make it a strawman, as if the only alternative to treating each others like assholes is to be passive-aggressive backstabbers. Even the military has those, the Navy calls them SWOs :P.

Even Linus doesn't make that claim directly, instead he says that the other cultures you might try to enforce lead eventually to the culture of PC passive-aggressive backstabbing, not that those are the only two options.

I do agree that the Linux kernel has a much higher need for attention to detail than many other user-space projects. But I don't think every such detail-oriented project necessarily requires this type of culture. How is the environment developing SQLite, or Postgres?

And even if we say detail-oriented projects need alpha personalities to enforce these checklists, where does that leave the majority of open-source development?

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#466

Post by mpyne »

riggins wrote: post #445
Confusion wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This response lacks empathy and imagination. Imagine being a child that for as long as he can remember has been told by his mother that he's worthless and that she should have had an abortion. You think that's 'not real' and that it only hurts 'to the extent he allows it'? Not everyone has grown up in the enviable position of being strong-willed and independent of thought, especially considering societal expectations…

You're confusing me having a high opinion of what humans are capable of with not having empathy. Two different things. My opinion is that humans are capable of incredible self control if they choose to exercise it. The more they're taught that lesson and learn their own strength and capabilities, the better. Of course I'm empathetic with the kid you described. I'm saying he can rise above it though. You're saying he…

Certainly it's easier to toughen up by rising above being slapped in the face than to deal with years of psychological abuse.

Would you say that it's wrong to slap people on the face then, or that the person being slapped should treat it as a lesson in learning their own strength and capabilities.

> I'm saying he can rise above it though. You're saying he can't.

He didn't say the kid can't rise above it. You assumed that.

I would say that the kid is not necessarily able to rise above it. But I would go further to say that it's not the kid's responsibility to have to rise above that at all, which I think is the point that's being missed here.

Just because your victim might be able to withstand your attack does not make you any less culpable for having engaged in it.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#467

Post by vacri »

officemonkey wrote: post #455
vacri wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rubbish. Constructive criticism requires input on specific paths to improve the situation. Telling someone they're a douche is just applying a generic insult. It's not even criticism of any kind, as douche is nonspecific.

>Rubbish. You're acting in self-centered, antagonistic manner that is aggravating the relationship.

I also think exactly the same thing of you, given that you think I'm stupid enough to believe that being called a douche is 'constructive criticism'. It doesn't require profanity to insult someone.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#468

Post by [deleted] »

officemonkey wrote: post #455
vacri wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rubbish. Constructive criticism requires input on specific paths to improve the situation. Telling someone they're a douche is just applying a generic insult. It's not even criticism of any kind, as douche is nonspecific.

>Rubbish. You're acting in self-centered, antagonistic manner that is aggravating the relationship.

[deleted]

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#469

Post by godgod »

Regardless of his skill or importance to the development of the Linux Kernel, Linus is a real dickhead. You can't treat people like crap and expect no static back. There are numerous examples of him being a bully just because he can. I'd like to see how far this behavior would be tolerated if he didn't hold the keys to the Linux kingdom.

TL;DR Linus is a dick.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#470

Post by godgod »

Confusion wrote: post #434
columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

My guess: if Linus would behave in a nicer, politer way, the Linux kernel would be much more awesome than it already is. Through his behavior and that of the people he has attracted (those that will deal with his shit and have a higher incidence of behaving in the same way), hundreds of would-be contributors have been annoyed, alienated and scared away. If you questioned every developer on this planet, for every kern…

I share those same thoughts. His abusive tone and behavior is a major turnoff for the Linux community and the spirit of collaboration.
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