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Overtime is Morphine

erniemiller.org

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Re: Overtime is Morphine

#21

Post by vonmoltke »

shailesh wrote: post #19
nawitus wrote: post #6

Simple solution (from the software engineer's perspective): demand overtime pay. If you are officially expected to work 40h/week for certain amount of money, but in practise you're "expected" to work 50h/week, then your real wage is actually 20% lower than what your contract says. And that is pretty similar to theft. It's time to start comparing wages instead of absolute income.

One should never work for any management that values hours spent rather than value created. But then, it also translates to work visibly.

By extension, you should avoid working for companies whose customers pay more attention to hours billed than products delivered.

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#22

Post by flyinRyan »

kyllo wrote: post #16
deelowe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most SWEs are salary. Overtime laws are different for salaried employees(depending on jurisdiction). A lot of times, you can demand overtime all you want and the employer can simply deny it, and most will. Typically, your only options are to switch employers or file a lawsuit.

Then you go try to find a job where you're actually only expected to work 40 hours per week, and everyone goes home by 5:00. But then, you find that the salary offer is at least 20% lower than the place that worked you 50+ hours/week. High salaries come with high expectations. If you're getting paid a lot, expect to work a lot, too. If a good work/life balance were free, everyone would have it. It has a definite oppo…

Except there are plenty of places that expect 50+ hours/week and pay 20% less than market at least. Likewise, I'm sure there are jobs that pay market or better and get close to 40 hour weeks.

The market doesn't work as efficiently as you imagine it does, nor could it since companies do all they can to hide what salaries actually are (i.e. imagine trying to buy fruit when nothing had prices, no one would tell you what they paid, and you had to negotiate in private for what they cost you).

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#23

Post by aspensmonster »

epa wrote: post #13

Consider the industry you are going into before complaining about overtime. I am expected to work long over time hours on a regular (daily) basis during busy seasons without extra compensation and this is what I expected going in. Highly skilled individuals who have extensive training will be 'put to work' in order to derive the benefits of this training by their employer. You are willing to put up with this behavior…

>without extra compensation

That right there is the crux of the issue. You don't work for free. Period. If it is expected that you'll be working long hours during busy seasons, then the initial salary offered should reflect that. If two people are getting paid the same salary but only one is expected to take overtime constantly, one of them is getting screwed.

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#24

Post by flyinRyan »

epa wrote: post #13

Consider the industry you are going into before complaining about overtime. I am expected to work long over time hours on a regular (daily) basis during busy seasons without extra compensation and this is what I expected going in. Highly skilled individuals who have extensive training will be 'put to work' in order to derive the benefits of this training by their employer. You are willing to put up with this behavior…

What a disgusting post. "Pay your dues just like I did". Just because you chose to be exploited with the hope that you'll some day get compensated for it doesn't mean the model is right. And your quip about where the highest quality innovate work comes from is unproven and probably unprovable.

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#25

Post by shailesh »

vonmoltke wrote: post #21
shailesh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One should never work for any management that values hours spent rather than value created. But then, it also translates to work visibly.

By extension, you should avoid working for companies whose customers pay more attention to hours billed than products delivered.

This advise (sentence) is worth its weight in pure gold. Kudos!

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#26

Post by kyllo »

vonmoltke wrote: post #20
kyllo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you go try to find a job where you're actually only expected to work 40 hours per week, and everyone goes home by 5:00. But then, you find that the salary offer is at least 20% lower than the place that worked you 50+ hours/week. High salaries come with high expectations. If you're getting paid a lot, expect to work a lot, too. If a good work/life balance were free, everyone would have it. It has a definite oppo…

All 11 years of my work experience thus far is in the defense industry, so keep that in mind as I state the following. I have yet to see an instance where salary scaled 1:1 with time put in. Where I used to work, the people that busted their asses for 50+ hours week in and week out, showing they were "team players", might get a 6% raise at review time instead of a 2% raise for a strict 8-5 engineer. They might also g…

I have yet to see an instance where salary scaled 1:1 with time put in

Agreed, and I also have yet to see an instance where productivity scaled 1:1 with time put in. So, it works out. :)

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#27

Post by jimwalsh »

shailesh wrote: post #19
nawitus wrote: post #6

Simple solution (from the software engineer's perspective): demand overtime pay. If you are officially expected to work 40h/week for certain amount of money, but in practise you're "expected" to work 50h/week, then your real wage is actually 20% lower than what your contract says. And that is pretty similar to theft. It's time to start comparing wages instead of absolute income.

One should never work for any management that values hours spent rather than value created. But then, it also translates to work visibly.

Many, many Fortune 500 companies still have plenty of old guard managers that think that hours spent is the most important metric out there. They are the same ones that can't grasp how to manage team members they can't see/touch.

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#28

Post by vonmoltke »

kyllo wrote: post #26
vonmoltke wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All 11 years of my work experience thus far is in the defense industry, so keep that in mind as I state the following. I have yet to see an instance where salary scaled 1:1 with time put in. Where I used to work, the people that busted their asses for 50+ hours week in and week out, showing they were "team players", might get a 6% raise at review time instead of a 2% raise for a strict 8-5 engineer. They might also g…

I have yet to see an instance where salary scaled 1:1 with time put in Agreed, and I also have yet to see an instance where productivity scaled 1:1 with time put in. So, it works out. :)

Quite true. There were many in the workaholic group who could have cut multiple hours off their weeks by working smarter.

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#29

Post by princess3000 »

epa wrote: post #13

Consider the industry you are going into before complaining about overtime. I am expected to work long over time hours on a regular (daily) basis during busy seasons without extra compensation and this is what I expected going in. Highly skilled individuals who have extensive training will be 'put to work' in order to derive the benefits of this training by their employer. You are willing to put up with this behavior…

You're confusing "a necessary grind" with "a necessary period where your employer exploits you for longer hours with no additional pay." You can (and almost certainly will have to) pay your dues at some point in your professional life but your mistake is thinking that you shouldn't be compensated for it.

It has very little to do with being "cut out for it" and more to do with not being exploited. And yes, there's a whole host of exploitation of various degrees even in modern workplaces and many people have had or still have to go through with it but that doesn't mean it's a good thing whatsoever (unless, of course, you're the employer).

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#30

Post by kyllo »

flyinRyan wrote: post #22
kyllo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you go try to find a job where you're actually only expected to work 40 hours per week, and everyone goes home by 5:00. But then, you find that the salary offer is at least 20% lower than the place that worked you 50+ hours/week. High salaries come with high expectations. If you're getting paid a lot, expect to work a lot, too. If a good work/life balance were free, everyone would have it. It has a definite oppo…

Except there are plenty of places that expect 50+ hours/week and pay 20% less than market at least . Likewise, I'm sure there are jobs that pay market or better and get close to 40 hour weeks. The market doesn't work as efficiently as you imagine it does, nor could it since companies do all they can to hide what salaries actually are (i.e. imagine trying to buy fruit when nothing had prices, no one would tell you wha…

Agreed, employers often take advantage of market illegibility as it allows them to underpay people who don't know what their market value is. The employment market has very imperfect information, and the information asymmetry is usually in the employer's favor.

In order to get the best of both worlds (reasonable hours and high pay) as an employee, you not only need to be a top-notch employee, but you also need to find a top-notch company to work for. Middling employers will either underpay you or overwork you, and the worst employers will do both.

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