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Overtime is Morphine

erniemiller.org

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Re: Overtime is Morphine

#11

Post by emiller829 »

keithhanson wrote: post #7

I like the article, and would love to apply, as "management" in my own company, effective measures to cure the pain instead of treat it. In fact, I generally try to do just that. But what this is basically suggesting is "locking out" your employer. While I agree that is absolutely what should happen, doing this without the leadership AND the developer in agreement about why sounds like disaster. I know it's likely im…

The suggestion isn't to introduce the lockout after the fact. In fact, what you're describing would be the exact thing that would happen in the metaphor -- acute withdrawal symptoms. The suggestion is to institute the lockout before dependency has a chance to develop.

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#13

Post by epa »

Consider the industry you are going into before complaining about overtime. I am expected to work long over time hours on a regular (daily) basis during busy seasons without extra compensation and this is what I expected going in. Highly skilled individuals who have extensive training will be 'put to work' in order to derive the benefits of this training by their employer.

You are willing to put up with this behavior because you believe that one day your training and experience will lead you to a very high paying job. Lawyers, doctors, accountants, engineers, the professionals, all understand that there is a necessary grind in order to prove your worth.

If you are not cut out for it, there is always work as a desk clerk making above minimum wage working 9-430. Yes, some employers have very relax policies relating to getting work done. But who are the ones producing the highest quality innovative work? The people working hard on a daily basis.

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#15

Post by esmale »

Unfortunately there is a long history of management viewing overtime as equivalent to a person's 'dedication' to the project.

One of my college Computer Science professors, the one I liked and respected the most, worked at Novell for quite a while back in the day. Not sure if his entire 20+ year programming career was spent there before going back to school to get his PhD. In any event, at one point he was a team lead at Novell. He made sure to hire, train and develop the right kind of programmers for his team. The kind that write tests, solid code, and practice good engineering principles.

To my memory, when he was telling us this story, the overtime he and his team worked was somewhere between minimal to non-existant. Their code was clean, well-tested, and worked. So at 5pm they would go home.

There was another team that was always scrambling at the last minute, and clocking lots of overtime.

When it came time for company/management recognition, which team received the accolades? The team that clocked all that overtime, because they MUST have been working harder to get things done than the other team. Right?

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#16

Post by kyllo »

deelowe wrote: post #8
nawitus wrote: post #6

Simple solution (from the software engineer's perspective): demand overtime pay. If you are officially expected to work 40h/week for certain amount of money, but in practise you're "expected" to work 50h/week, then your real wage is actually 20% lower than what your contract says. And that is pretty similar to theft. It's time to start comparing wages instead of absolute income.

Most SWEs are salary. Overtime laws are different for salaried employees(depending on jurisdiction). A lot of times, you can demand overtime all you want and the employer can simply deny it, and most will. Typically, your only options are to switch employers or file a lawsuit.

Then you go try to find a job where you're actually only expected to work 40 hours per week, and everyone goes home by 5:00. But then, you find that the salary offer is at least 20% lower than the place that worked you 50+ hours/week.

High salaries come with high expectations. If you're getting paid a lot, expect to work a lot, too. If a good work/life balance were free, everyone would have it. It has a definite opportunity cost.

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#17

Post by noarchy »

nawitus wrote: post #6

Simple solution (from the software engineer's perspective): demand overtime pay. If you are officially expected to work 40h/week for certain amount of money, but in practise you're "expected" to work 50h/week, then your real wage is actually 20% lower than what your contract says. And that is pretty similar to theft. It's time to start comparing wages instead of absolute income.

This is where being an hourly contractor really has its perks. If people expect long hours from a contractor, fair enough, but it will cost them. In my own situation, when overtime opportunities arise, I'm thinking of the money that I can make. This, versus being salaried, where I'd ponder the hit my private life going to take, with no extra compensation, to boot.

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#18

Post by shailesh »

emiller829 wrote: post #11
keithhanson wrote: post #7

I like the article, and would love to apply, as "management" in my own company, effective measures to cure the pain instead of treat it. In fact, I generally try to do just that. But what this is basically suggesting is "locking out" your employer. While I agree that is absolutely what should happen, doing this without the leadership AND the developer in agreement about why sounds like disaster. I know it's likely im…

The suggestion isn't to introduce the lockout after the fact. In fact, what you're describing would be the exact thing that would happen in the metaphor -- acute withdrawal symptoms. The suggestion is to institute the lockout before dependency has a chance to develop.

A preventive measure by the C-level management will yield results: a person working overtime, must take a documented approval from the PM. The incentive bonus for the PM must be negatively linked to the number of overtime hours spent by the team members.

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#19

Post by shailesh »

nawitus wrote: post #6

Simple solution (from the software engineer's perspective): demand overtime pay. If you are officially expected to work 40h/week for certain amount of money, but in practise you're "expected" to work 50h/week, then your real wage is actually 20% lower than what your contract says. And that is pretty similar to theft. It's time to start comparing wages instead of absolute income.

One should never work for any management that values hours spent rather than value created. But then, it also translates to work visibly.

Re: Overtime is Morphine

#20

Post by vonmoltke »

kyllo wrote: post #16
deelowe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most SWEs are salary. Overtime laws are different for salaried employees(depending on jurisdiction). A lot of times, you can demand overtime all you want and the employer can simply deny it, and most will. Typically, your only options are to switch employers or file a lawsuit.

Then you go try to find a job where you're actually only expected to work 40 hours per week, and everyone goes home by 5:00. But then, you find that the salary offer is at least 20% lower than the place that worked you 50+ hours/week. High salaries come with high expectations. If you're getting paid a lot, expect to work a lot, too. If a good work/life balance were free, everyone would have it. It has a definite oppo…

All 11 years of my work experience thus far is in the defense industry, so keep that in mind as I state the following.

I have yet to see an instance where salary scaled 1:1 with time put in. Where I used to work, the people that busted their asses for 50+ hours week in and week out, showing they were "team players", might get a 6% raise at review time instead of a 2% raise for a strict 8-5 engineer. They might also get a few thousand in extra bonuses, if their department has funding for them. After a while they might get to the point where they were making enough extra to justify the effort, but "a while" could be 10 years or more.

Note that I am specifically avoiding any discussion of non-monetary considerations and that my analysis sounds rather mercenary. I am specifically trying to address the issue of engineers making more money for being expected to put in more effort. Discussion of the non-monetary considerations could be a lengthy tangent on its own.

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