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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#391

Post by jvdh »

CrLf wrote: post #220
jvdh wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that it works does not mean that it can't be improved. And a context that scares people off is not one that I would say "works".

But it's debatable that it actually scares anyone off... This is not about grinding newcomers to the LKML, this is about the type of communication between people that have known each other for quite some time, and are well aware of each other's technical "sensibilities". True, the LKML is also known to be a bit harsh to newcomers. But only in a sense that newcomers are often unaware of the high technical standards th…

I would not want to work in an environment where mistakes are punished by a shouting tyrant. Even if I know I should not make those mistakes.

It does not matter that he does this to people he knows well and perhaps can even handle this kind of verbal abuse. He does this publicly to the entire world which is not acceptable in my book.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#392

Post by Quarrelsome »

galactus wrote: post #331
claudius wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part of his behaviour in this email is unacceptable in particular? Let’s look at it: > Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP! Okay, so he tells Mauro to stop talking because he apparently thinks that what Mauro was saying is wrong. To make very sure that what he wrote is read, he puts in fancy caps and some light swearing, which, however, is not directed at anyone in particular. A more polite version of this would have been…

You make it sound as if it was a perfectly normal tone to use... Do you talk like that to, say, your parents?

If they violated a core principle of yours? Sure thing! :)

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#393

Post by riggins »

snowwrestler wrote: post #334
riggins wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love what Linus is saying here. I feel like some people haven't really internalized the lesson of the schoolyard saying 'sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me'. I think that saying is deeper than it seems at first blush. It's a reminder that we are 100% in control of how we react to words. We choose how we react to words. You can always choose. Anyone who complains about language is imp…

> Anyone who complains about language is implicitly saying they're unable to control themselves and how they react to words. The reality is that most people (probably even including you) cannot do this 100%. Total equanimity is something to strive for in our own lives, but it should not be a criteria by which we judge other people. And it should not be an excuse to be a jerk. One of the key insights of working togeth…

The reality is that most people (probably even including you) cannot do this 100%.

All people definitely can do this. They just choose not to.

I won't say that I always do, but I try to keep it mind. Its a lesson I really try to internalize.

Try this thought experiment. Let's say I show up at your office with a duffel bag filled with $1M cash ... and I said to you, snowwrestler 'I'm now going to make a bunch of nasty and insulting comments to you ... if you can laugh it off with a smile you get this giant bag of cash', I suspect you could find it in you to absolutely ignore everything I said and happily focus on the giant bag of cash sitting in front of you.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#394

Post by qwerta »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #357
qwerta wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression is that Linus shouts at everyone. Where the sexist comes from?

Implied by "this is not just about me, or other minorities".

So basically she implies he is a racist? Is not this even worse abuse than initial Linus rant?

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#395

Post by riggins »

mpyne wrote: post #337
riggins wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love what Linus is saying here. I feel like some people haven't really internalized the lesson of the schoolyard saying 'sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me'. I think that saying is deeper than it seems at first blush. It's a reminder that we are 100% in control of how we react to words. We choose how we react to words. You can always choose. Anyone who complains about language is imp…

Words are just words. They merely convey the message. But the message itself can be harmful. Psychological abuse is just as real to the brain as physical abuse is to the skin and muscle beneath. If messages meant nothing then there would be no reason to talk about hate speech, sexually abusive speech, or the many, many other harmful messages people can and do convey to others. It's not my job to build an impenetrable…

we'll have to agree to disagree. The fundamental claim that I simply don't accept is that people can't handle words. I disagree. People have the capacity to handle anything that is said to them.

Psychological abuse is just as real to the brain as physical abuse is to the skin and muscle beneath.

a. I'm skeptical of this claim. Would like to see your source b. Only to the extent you allow it. That's one of the defining features of being a human. I can actually say to myself 'pull it together, words are meaningless' or 'this guy is an ignorant, why would I care what he says'.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#396

Post by grannyg00se »

sanoli wrote: post #284
VikingCoder wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a huge problem with what you're saying - you are nowhere establishing what would be going TOO FAR, or how people should react, if they believe he has gone too far. For a completely imperfect analogy, it's okay that [project leader X] makes some sexual jokes every now and then. But if he sexually assaulted someone, that would be too far. Is it possible, in your mind, for Linus to go TOO FAR in one of his rants,…

If he wasn't communicating through emails, it probably would have been considered as going too far already. And he probably doesn't rant the same way when talking face-to-face with others, or when dealing with people outside of the tech/Linux community.

Not so sure. Didn't he tell an entire company to go fuck themselves and throw them the middle finger on public video?

And as a bonus, I think it resulted in a positive outcome.

http://www.ubergizmo.com/2012/06/nvidia-addresses-linus-torv...

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#398

Post by grannyg00se »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #343

Show some intellectual curiosity, people. The same way some hackers get mad at others' unwillingness to dig into math/tech, many of you are refusing to put just a little bit of effort into being civil. It can be difficult to separate what's actually factually making you upset from the basal urge to express raw ire by cursing and belittling, but it becomes easier with practice. Just like math, or any other intelligenc…

"There is a higher level of humanity to aspire to than yelling at one another like cavemen OR Machiavellian passive-aggressive faux-politeness."

Faux-politeness is exactly what Linus is criticising here and he definitely doesn't engage in it. And there is no evidence of him yelling like a caveman at this person. Are you referring to some other example? I'd like to see that. The only time I've seen him yelling and fully throttling someone is when they appear to really need a kick in the ass (multiple horrific offenses).

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#399

Post by JulianMorrison »

qwerta wrote: post #394
JulianMorrison wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Implied by "this is not just about me, or other minorities".

So basically she implies he is a racist? Is not this even worse abuse than initial Linus rant?

1. I didn't find/read Sarah's up thread message. But the snippet implies somebody is (pick one of) sexist/racist/etc. Not necessarily Linus.

2. Accusing someone of sexism, racism, etc, is not "abuse". It is never an insult. If you get accused of it, consider being less sexist/racist/etc rather than taking offense.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#400

Post by volume »

6d0debc071 wrote: post #329
jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

> Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. There are some extremely dedicated people who are prepared to put up with his tantrums to work on the kernel. I'm not sure that's the same thing as knowing how to run an effective team. He's at t…

To be honest, I don't keep up with the internal politics or interactions between Linus and his crew.

What are examples of Linus not interacting "in a meaningful way with most of the people in it"?

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