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Ask HN: Why are IT salaries so much lower in Europe than in the US?

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Ask HN: Why are IT salaries so much lower in Europe than in the US?

#1
I noticed that there is a huge gap between IT (specifically, programmer) salaries in the US and European countries like Germany.

While I don't have hard data to back this claim up, there are some examples: Average salary for IBM Senior Consultant in USA: $97,865 [1] Average salary for IBM Senior Consultant in Germany: $83,820 [2]

If one believes in the market adjusting the prices the only explanation is that there are more programmers or less jobs in Europe than in the US. Certainly there is no lack of complaining about shortage of IT workers in Europe. Any other insights?

[1] http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/IBM-Senior-Consultant-Salaries-E354_D_KO4,21.htm [2] http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/IBM-Senior-Consultant-Germany-Salaries-EJI_IE354.0,3_KO4,21_IL.22,29_IN96.htm

Re: Ask HN: Why are IT salaries so much lower in Europe than in the US?

#4
Yup. Moving from the US back to the UK, my salary took a hit from $110k down to $70k.

My guess (and this is no more than a guess) is that the difference is primarily cultural.

There is an acceptance in the US that technical skills are a core part of value creation, and as a result developers tend to be more tightly integrated into the "business". In a mild feedback loop, this in turn causes US developer culture to orient more towards the business, to the extent that developer and management roles and responsibilities start to overlap. (I am, of course, generalising. My experience is with the NYC startup scene, and so is not likely to be generally applicable).

By contrast, the boundary between the front and back ends of the business is more distinct in the UK. In part, this is due to the slightly more introverted/passive/geeky technical culture in the UK, which tends to reduce the involvement of technical staff in the management process. In part, it is also due to the attitude of the "business" - which tends to value the sales process as the key part of value creation - with technical staff tending to be seen more as an overhead than as the engine of the business. In extreme cases, this can manifest itself as an extremely derogatory attitude towards developers. "Glorified typists" was a phrase that I came across once - although fortunately this is a rare extreme.

So, my guess is that IT salaries are lower in Europe than in the US because developers in Europe have less autonomy and are less integrated into business decision making, partly as a result of an introverted and passive developer culture, whereas in the US, greater interaction between developers and management drives an increased perception of the value of technical skills, and a greater role in business decision making.

Re: Ask HN: Why are IT salaries so much lower in Europe than in the US?

#5
post #2

Supply & Demand

There is a lot of friction in the employment market, and market participants are a long long way from rational actors, so labour arbitrage does not really work like it should, and supply & demand economics only really applies in extremis, over extended periods time.

As a result, price discovery in the employment market is extremely inefficient - and tends to be set using cultural and cognitive biases; perceived value; and so on, rather than with rational market considerations.

Many employers simply follow the herd when setting salaries - offering the median of what everybody else in the marketplace offers - or they will set a salary that is in alignment with their cultural preconceptions of "value".

On the other side of the fence, it is rare to find a developer who will negotiate for a higher salary, or reject a job offer choosing instead to wait for a better role to become available, a factor that tends to reduce the effective "liquidity" of the jobs market.

So, it is entirely plausible that salaries spend a long time stuck far far away from the equilibrium point that they would reach if supply/demand economics really did rule the jobs market.

Re: Ask HN: Why are IT salaries so much lower in Europe than in the US?

#7

Yup. Moving from the US back to the UK, my salary took a hit from $110k down to $70k. My guess (and this is no more than a guess) is that the difference is primarily cultural. There is an acceptance in the US that technical skills are a core part of value creation, and as a result developers tend to be more tightly integrated into the "business". In a mild feedback loop, this in turn causes US developer culture to or…

You've described my experience as a developer quite accurately, though all of my development experience (8+ years) has been in Canada. I'd say that here, the separation between developers and managers is very clear, and the derogatory jabs at developers was prevalent in 3 out of 4 of the development gigs that I've had over the years.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a strong tech/development culture here, or at least I haven't been exposed to it if it does exist. Most developers are content to see themselves as peons and want no part of the decision making process, which isn't doing much for those that do.

I've resigned to the fact that if I want to attain some autonomy in my career, at least in Canada, my only option is entrepreneurship.

Re: Ask HN: Why are IT salaries so much lower in Europe than in the US?

#8

Yup. Moving from the US back to the UK, my salary took a hit from $110k down to $70k. My guess (and this is no more than a guess) is that the difference is primarily cultural. There is an acceptance in the US that technical skills are a core part of value creation, and as a result developers tend to be more tightly integrated into the "business". In a mild feedback loop, this in turn causes US developer culture to or…

"developers in Europe have less autonomy and are less integrated into business decision making, partly as a result of an introverted and passive developer culture, whereas in the US, greater interaction between developers and management drives an increased perception of the value of technical skills, and a greater role in business decision making."

To an extent, this has been my experience as well since I work with many globally distributed teams across US, Europe and Asia as well. It is probably not fair to generalize this but I have always noticed that developers in the UK/Europe tend to focus only on the actual code "what" is required and when it comes to any decision making, they usually do not have much say (whether voluntary or because of management structure). In the US however, developers are a lot more involved in management discussions and decision making. Again, I would be careful not to generalize this.

Re: Ask HN: Why are IT salaries so much lower in Europe than in the US?

#10
You say "IT" but then programmer, which is typically a job in R&D, not IT.

Are your data sets comparing apples to oranges? If you're looking at IT salaries in one place (network admins, db admins, help desk) and R&D salaries in another (software engineers, QA, product managers) you could easily get different results.

I'm aware that the UK tends to use "IT" for all things computer related, so it seems very easy to get mixed data when crossing the atlantic.

(Most likely the differences are due to the many differences in taxes, holiday/vacation, ability to hire & fire, etc between countries).

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