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Linus on "acting professionally"

marc.info

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#241
I think is it has more to do with Human Interaction, or working as Remote.

When I dont see your face, listen to you directly, It is rather hard to understand the importance of something. Especially when they are working on kernel, which is the most critical component.

Would Linus have said it loudly in front of hundreds of other Engineers? I would have properly called it verbal abuse. But in real life at least i can rise my voice and tone and shout without having to use a single abusive word.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#243
post #171
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet another comment chiding Torvalds for not maintaining civility... while insulting him ('being a douche'). You talk about being 'incapable of realising' - perhaps review your own comment.

isn't any form of criticism an insult? Plus we're talking about Torvald's attitude, hard to avoid personal attacks when we're talking about the person himself.

> isn't any form of criticism an insult?

Not if you go by the dictionary definitions. By what definition is any form of criticism an insult?

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#244
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it matter? He's correct about office environments.

Not in my experience. (Anecdotal evidence - we all produce it and it always smells the same.)

How many different varied offices and environments have you worked in?

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#245
I feel the people defending Linus are being a tad hypocritical. I feel as though because you like Linus or Linux, his behavior is effectively being excused.

A thought experiment would be to replace "Linus" with someone you don't particularly care for and see if you don't wince just a bit.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#246
post #46

I'm glad Linus isn't budging on this one. As soon as you start considering how not to hurt someone's feelings, you're putting speed bumps in the paths of your thoughts. If something is fucking stupid, then someone needs to say exactly that, not "That's a good idea, but it seems to me and my mealy mouth that such and such may be another way of doing it...?" The fact that the hacker community is full of mean gits is no…

There's nothing wrong with "That's a really bad idea, and here's why". There's everything wrong with "THAT IDEA IS FUCKING STUPID. YOU'RE SUCH AN IDIOT". Do you really think the only way to communicate a mistake is like this: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75 ? And Linus is perfectly capable of giving a more reasoned response while still being direct: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/99 (same thread, Linus' reply t…

And here we see the pitfalls of fuzzy thinking. There is all the difference between "that's a stupid idea" and "you're an idiot."

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#247

Linus is dead wrong here. When he says acting professionally means "fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords", he's attacking a straw man: none of that behaviour is professional, and to say that professional behaviour must degenerate to that behaviour is a stretch at best. Aggression is not warranted in a professional environment; neither overt (a…

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. The things Linus mentions are what happens as a result of supposed "professionalism". People are emotional, reactionary creatures with very different needs. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. As was shown on a recent post…

Speaking of his native tongue--based on my own experiences working with international colleagues, I think there's also a little bit of a cultural component to his behavior.

This obviously doesn't hold true for all individuals, but Americans tend to prefer the "Let's all hold hands and sing kumbaya" type of social dynamic. "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything." Much emphasis is placed on not hurting anyone's feelings, and maintaining the appearance that everyone likes everyone else.

Northern Europeans, meanwhile, tend to prefer the "We're all adults here, so let's cut the bullshit and say exactly what we think." Being honest and genuine is more important than being liked.

This part, I find really significant: And hey, I don't actually think we've personally even had any problems. And I realize that you may react very strongly and get nervous about us having problems, but realistically, do you actually expect to like all the other kernel engineers? And equally importantly, not everybody has to like you, or necessarily think they have to be liked by you. OK?

That strikes me as a very Northern European view, that is not as likely to be shared by most Americans. It's just not how we're socialized in America. And too often, "professionalism" gets defined as "American style," while anything un-American is deemed unprofessional, which is not quite right.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#248
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a false dichotomy. it's possible to be succint, harsh, and directly to the point without swearing or being abusive. for example, off the top of my head: "stephen, this code is riddled with basic errors and is completely unacceptable. please fix a, b, and c immediately and know that if you make mistakes like this again, your contributions will no longer be welcome." versus: "stephen, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WIT…

Personally I would much rather receive the second feedback as it does not contain a threat.

But IIRC Linus did threaten the offending committer in the last rude email.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#249
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too much profanity? Well butter my ass and call me fucking skittles! So you want to censor everyone who doesn't buy into your flowery child talk? Fuck that. Cursing is a perfectly fine means of setting emphasis and I sure as shitpissfuckcuntcocksuckermotherfuckertits am not going to surrender that just so some shithead I don't even care about can jack off to his or her little control fantasies. You don't like that? I…

Hacker News: Where IQ and intelligence trumps being pleasant. So many tech types are assholes.

From what I have seen of Linus in interviews and presentations he seems like a very fun and pleasant person. He is harsh and swears when he gets angry which does not mean he cannot also be pleasant.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#250
post #216

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

I agree with everything you say. The problem that you don't explicitly mention is that people see Linus behaving this way and feel it's acceptable, and they carry on that behaviour. Some open source environments are toxic and horrible and it's hard to correct that when you have very public figures acting in that toxic horrible way.

Linus gets away with it because he's Linus and people are willing to swim through a river of shit to work closely with him.

Conversely, an average OSS developer will drive people away with this attitude unless the benefit of working with him is so attractive that it outweighs the pain of abuse (in which case he's probably not 'average' at all).

Assholes who really deliver get a pass from (some of) the world. Doesn't mean that you can get their results by being an asshole.

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