Linus on "acting professionally" • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#221

Post by boomlinde » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 1:00 PM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #152

jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

Some thing can happen in spite of things, instead of because of them. Some people link Job's success to his attitude. But his attitude didn't make him successful, it was his vision and ability to convince people. That said, I think Linus is fairly professional in the core of his communication. Just because you swear doesn't mean that the message you're passing along isn't.

I know what you mean, but you writing "Job's" (as in the biblical character) instead of "Jobs'" gives this post an interesting angle.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#222

Post by gnoway » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 1:01 PM UTC

I think we need to remember that the words and the intent of the words are two different things. If he's just given to rudeness and profanity, that in and of itself is not a big deal. There are plenty of very abrasive people who do good work and aren't trying to hurt anyone. If Linus was out to actually harm people - maybe he is, I don't know - that would be a problem IMO.

He's absolutely correct that everyone doesn't have to like and be able to work with everyone. All the people who continue to find ways to complain about his behavior just don't like him. OK. Fork the project.

See: OpenBSD and DragonflyBSD for domain examples of what to do when you have personality conflicts in an open source OS project.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#223

Post by DodgyEggplant » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 1:02 PM UTC

columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

Linus manages combined efforts of hundreds of people for years, probably leading the most successful open source project ever. Without salaries, without command and rule authority, without perks, without shared office space, even without HR. He probably knows something about what it takes to manage people

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#224

Post by corresation » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 1:02 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #216

columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

I agree with everything you say. The problem that you don't explicitly mention is that people see Linus behaving this way and feel it's acceptable, and they carry on that behaviour. Some open source environments are toxic and horrible and it's hard to correct that when you have very public figures acting in that toxic horrible way.

In no way is he acting in a "toxic horrible way". Some people simply have very, very thin skin and the judgment of behavior -- the social expectations -- is absolutely a thinly-veiled tactic of control. Linus doesn't have to be put in his place, and if you don't like that tough luck.

Linus is absolutely right that in the professional sense the same behavior simply moves to the shadows. By being professional we vent the same feelings in hushed murmurs and ever-so-gentle sideband criticism.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#225

Post by jeltz » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 1:03 PM UTC

lazyjones wrote: post #29

pasiaj wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? The whole point is that he is not suppressing the urges. When he feels frustrated, he might add a "fuck" or "shit" to convey that feeling. You, on the other hand, did not agree to something, felt mad or frustrated, and instead of conveying that frustration you snidely suggested that that he must be suppressing some "natural urges". Violent? Homosexual? From whose subconscious did those arise from? Not Linuses? (…

> The whole point is that he is not suppressing the urges. Freud would disagree and so do I. > you snidely suggested that that he must be suppressing some "natural urges" Same thing Linus did in the last paragraph. :-/ > your reply to be a perfect example of what Linus is trying to avoid ("fake politeness[...]" That makes no sense. I am just trying to analyze and understand his behavior. There's no emotion involved a…

Freudian analysis in debate is something I find incredibly rude, one of the rudest things you can do to a person. I realize you might not have meant that way, which is why I generally do not call people out on it. But in this discussion rudeness seemed like a relevant thing to think about.

By the way most of the theories of Freud have since long been discredited by the scientific community.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#226

Post by xradionut » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 1:04 PM UTC

If you are a Linux kernel programmer/submitter, you should know the situation by now. You don't have to submit code to Linus as he has stated, you can go through an intermediary. Don't waste his time, that's the most valuable thing he has.

As far as professionals cursing, I reckon most of the individuals on HN have never been in the military. There's a fine art of stressing the importance of paying attention to details, which good noncoms and shipmates enforce through creative profanity and rich English. It stress the importance of the situation.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#227

Post by planb » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 1:05 PM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #152

jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

Some thing can happen in spite of things, instead of because of them. Some people link Job's success to his attitude. But his attitude didn't make him successful, it was his vision and ability to convince people. That said, I think Linus is fairly professional in the core of his communication. Just because you swear doesn't mean that the message you're passing along isn't.

His attitude played a major role in his ability to convince people. And it is way more time efficient to be rude sometimes, so he had more time to worry about important stuff.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#228

Post by vickytnz » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 1:05 PM UTC

Nrsolis wrote: post #31

ealexhudson wrote: post #11

Linus is dead wrong here. When he says acting professionally means "fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords", he's attacking a straw man: none of that behaviour is professional, and to say that professional behaviour must degenerate to that behaviour is a stretch at best. Aggression is not warranted in a professional environment; neither overt (a…

The real danger here is that once you've developed the habit of berating people who screw up, you'll continue to do it when it's not really called for. I'm no shrinking violet. I got a good ass-chewing from time to time in the Navy and each time I deserved it. That said, you'd be surprised to hear that ass-chewing doesn't happen NEARLY as often as you'd expect it to in a hyper-aggressive life-or-death type world like…

I know a designer who used to be a psychologist working with disabled children. He has a similar perspective: "it's design, not brain surgery!"

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#229

Post by corresation » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 1:05 PM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #158

hahainternet wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it matter? He's correct about office environments.

Not in my experience. (Anecdotal evidence - we all produce it and it always smells the same.)

"Office politics" is a universally known behavior of most offices, and I suspect that maybe you were simply not paying attention to it if you don't think it exists.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#230

Post by rfctr » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 1:06 PM UTC

I strongly believe now Linus' mother had an affair in Russia !

(Its only 100 or so kilometers to the border)

That kind of working environment: "I openly tell you when you do s--t but I do not hold grudge against you, it is for our mutual benefit" was common in Russian software companies around year 2000. This is largely a part of the culture.

It looks like a rudeness for an unprepared Western folks, but in fact it is not -- it is just unwillingness (or lack of proper training) to play games when one can do work instead.

I left Russia in 2003, and in the following years got adjusted my ways to be... nice.

I work from home in my pijamas too, so I wonder why Linus didn't catch that skill?..