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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#161

Post by scotty79 »

ericd wrote: post #109
valleyer wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not as black and white as you make it out to be. On one end of the spectrum, we have the inane “compliment sandwich”. On the other, we have Linus saying “your code is shit”. In the middle, we have professional yet effective criticism. Something like, “Sorry, we’re not going to take this code — it’s too half-baked and exposes some serious security vulnerabilities.”

Insulting the person probably serves as a filter - at that point that person either shapes up or stops committing, either of which is a better outcome for Linus than that person continuing to commit crap code for Linus to have to look at/approve. Your more reasonable comment doesn't have the same effect, so it's not the strictly better solution, depending on what Linus values.

@flumbaps - Because it's more impolite and hurtful? People tend to be more hurt by clear rejection then they are by being called stupid for something they did.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#162

Post by Ygg2 »

vacri wrote: post #146
Ygg2 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not meant in an ironic sense. I'd agree there are degrees of someone being a dick. There is also the matter of it being done in different context, it's different to be a asshole in public is different that in semi-privacy of a mailing list. Another thing to note, that both commenters didn't go into foreign language swear mode :) and called Linus a devil's cunthead. They pointed out he is behaving as douchebag.

If it's not meant in an ironic sense, then why post the comments? You have people complaining that someone isn't acting professionally... and then not acting professionally. It serves to bolster Torvalds' point, not weaken it. If the response is 'context', then it should also be pointed out that we only ever see the slimmest speck of his emails from the list and we never see them in the context in which they're prese…

Again acting professionally, isn't their job, they are commenting on thread on Slashdot, not on a Github issue or LK mailing list, which is his implied business (as in things that keeps him busy around the day and that he strives to prefect professionally).

It's true we might miss some of the context by not being there, that said, from his previous discussions you can draw a lot of observation that help clarify the current context.

Point of the messages was that him acting "unprofessional" will actually cause the same behavior he is trying to avoid by acting "unprofessional".

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#163

Post by nawitus »

smtddr wrote: post #61
jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Personally, I think the amount of abusive speech & profanity in the tech-field is way too much. I assume(incorrectly?) that it's because it's mostly male and a lot of men like to do that to each other. I personally don't do it to anyone and don't like it being directed at me.

Swearing and swearing at are different things, though. You can have profanity without abusive speech, e.g. 'fuck, race conditions suck' etc.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#164

Post by quizotic »

Amusing post! Linus makes a nice point about finding ways to work together without imposing expectations on each other. OTOH, Linus seems to expect that everyone has "names will never hurt me" world view. Most of us can be deeply hurt by the kind of verbal abuse Linus so freely supplies. And why should anyone work with someone who hurts them?

Isn't OP's appeal to "professional behavior" exactly the same as Linus' point? Professional behavior is the set of rules the world has evolved to find ways to work together when we're all different. Those rules work statistically well ... except for outliers like Linus.

I don't know much about Linus other than his brilliance and his verbal abuse... which reminds me of Bobby Fisher - breathtakingly beautiful chess mind and pathetic garbage heap of a person. I hope Linus is better than that, and suffers from nothing more than anger management and healthy rebelliousness

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#165

Post by jonahx »

nextw33k wrote: post #126
jonahx wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a false dichotomy. it's possible to be succint, harsh, and directly to the point without swearing or being abusive. for example, off the top of my head: "stephen, this code is riddled with basic errors and is completely unacceptable. please fix a, b, and c immediately and know that if you make mistakes like this again, your contributions will no longer be welcome." versus: "stephen, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WIT…

I think you need to read the email again. You failed to see his point. You are trying to create uniformity and conformance, which is not in our nature. Some people are polite, others are not (Linus for example). The working environment of the kernel mailing list is public and subject to harsh language because it's run (rather successfully it could easily be concluded) with the philosophy that people should be able to…

i see his point, i just disagree with it. i said this in another comment, but your logic would apply equally well to physical abuse:

"you are trying to create uniformity and conformance, but people are different. some people are kind and patient with their children, others are explosive and sometimes beat them. some of those children grow up to be very successful and hit their children. who are you to tell people how to raise their children?"

to be clear, i am not saying linus's swearing in an email is even the same league as child abuse, but the logical argument above and the one you are making is the same.

honestly, it just seems like a clever piece of rhetoric to justify treating people any way you please. it reminds me of the evangelical christians here who are against gay marriage, and argue that they are the victims now because they can no longer preach against homosexuality in peace, and lobby for laws against it, what with all the liberal media painting them as monsters and not respecting their rights to express their own religious beliefs

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#166

Post by forgottenpaswrd »

smtddr wrote: post #61
jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Personally, I think the amount of abusive speech & profanity in the tech-field is way too much. I assume(incorrectly?) that it's because it's mostly male and a lot of men like to do that to each other. I personally don't do it to anyone and don't like it being directed at me.

"I think the amount of abusive speech & profanity in the tech-field is way too much. I assume(incorrectly?) that it's because it's mostly male and a lot of men like to do that to each other."

It seems clear to me that you don't have contact with lots of women. Do you?.

It seems to me you are idealizing what you don't know about.

Profanity was not their forte(recent generations in some sectors could compete with men), but abusive speech is. They could be formidable verbal aggressors, specially between them.

The strongest verbal abusers I know all are women.

I Know a woman that was so socked that his father slapped her once, but now she is so verbal abusive with her children. I have seen it, and certainly if I were one of her children I would prefer a slap to this psychological pressure.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#167

Post by d4nt »

jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

In the early days, Linux was not the only open source kernal out there. It's possible that Linus's blunt approach is actually a key factor in Linux's success. Society hasn't yet had long to establish a set of norms for working in distributed teams like this (where the members aren't compelled to do as their told by traditional employment contracts). Maybe he's right and removing the offensiveness would just bog Linux down in endless political games.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#168

Post by scotty79 »

jonahx wrote: post #56
stephenr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. The things Linus mentions are what happens as a result of supposed "professionalism". People are emotional, reactionary creatures with very different needs. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. As was shown on a recent post…

this is a false dichotomy. it's possible to be succint, harsh, and directly to the point without swearing or being abusive. for example, off the top of my head: "stephen, this code is riddled with basic errors and is completely unacceptable. please fix a, b, and c immediately and know that if you make mistakes like this again, your contributions will no longer be welcome." versus: "stephen, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WIT…

Personally I would much rather receive the second feedback as it does not contain a threat.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#170

Post by bguthrie »

Who cares if he acts professionally or not? But he's certainly not kind, and that counts.

Whenever someone talented acts like a dick, take a moment to think of all the talented people in history who managed to remain civil despite their accomplishments. It's a long enough list to matter. No one gets a free pass.

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