Live data from Hacker News

VP of Engineering - "best of the best" = no more than 12 years experience?

jobscore.com

121–130 of 152 posts

Re: VP of Engineering - "best of the best" = no more than 12 years experience?

#121

This is totally off topic, and might be considered a rant, but I see this from time-to-time in startup land. Not understanding titles. First, this is for a "vp of engineering" that is "hands on". Are you really looking for an architect that codes? Perhaps a Sr. Engineer/Team lead? Do the engineers directly report to this "vp of engineering"? What happens when the team gets to big? Second, you are locking yourself int…

>>First, this is for a "vp of engineering" that is "hands on". Are you really looking for an architect that codes?

Sorry but why can't a VP of engineering be somebody who should code(even if occasionally) or some who could be competent at a code review. Its precisely this kind of attitude that gives ammunition to the MBA culture of appointing people who are clueless about their current job to manage the best people under them.

The net result is getting people appointed who know nothing about the people they managing, or the line of work. And just take blanket common sense based decision which most of the times are wrong with regards to the domain they lead.

Regardless of who you are- architect, VP or whatever fancy title. If you claim to be the leader of a group of people with some specific skills you should be somebody who at the very least has mastered those skills.

According to me anybody who claims to lead a group must be the best among that group, in the job that group performs.

Re: VP of Engineering - "best of the best" = no more than 12 years experience?

#122
post #121

This is totally off topic, and might be considered a rant, but I see this from time-to-time in startup land. Not understanding titles. First, this is for a "vp of engineering" that is "hands on". Are you really looking for an architect that codes? Perhaps a Sr. Engineer/Team lead? Do the engineers directly report to this "vp of engineering"? What happens when the team gets to big? Second, you are locking yourself int…

>>First, this is for a "vp of engineering" that is "hands on". Are you really looking for an architect that codes? Sorry but why can't a VP of engineering be somebody who should code(even if occasionally) or some who could be competent at a code review. Its precisely this kind of attitude that gives ammunition to the MBA culture of appointing people who are clueless about their current job to manage the best people u…

> According to me anybody who claims to lead a group must be the best among that group, in the job that group performs.

I think this is an error. Taking your best coder and then spending their time on not-coding is wasteful of their talents.

Furthermore, insofar as you create competition to hold that position, you're creating a destructive work environment. Software development is a cooperative activity that can't be efficiently partitioned.

Re: VP of Engineering - "best of the best" = no more than 12 years experience?

#123

It actually makes sense. It's not about age. Middle management has an expiration date. If you've been a middle manager for 15 years, that's bad bad bad. (Being an IC for 15 years is respectable; but once you move into management, you should make director in 5 years and VP in no less than 10.) Programming has an ageism problem largely because it's run by career managers (who think all of us want to be them-- and we do…

You can be fairly confident there some startups out there founding by 20 somethings, populated by 20 somethings, who think having someone over 30, or certainly over 40, on their team or even in their office would be akin to the plague. They would probably place them in the same camp as their parents. I totally understand why coders like Agile, hey I like it because hacking code is the fun part :) Its also kind of a g…

The biggest problem with age is, its not static.

If in your 20's you feel, some one over 30's is a plague. You have a big reason to be worried, because you will be in your 30's in less than 10 years. That's too less time for comfort.

Re: VP of Engineering - "best of the best" = no more than 12 years experience?

#124
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>First, this is for a "vp of engineering" that is "hands on". Are you really looking for an architect that codes? Sorry but why can't a VP of engineering be somebody who should code(even if occasionally) or some who could be competent at a code review. Its precisely this kind of attitude that gives ammunition to the MBA culture of appointing people who are clueless about their current job to manage the best people u…

> According to me anybody who claims to lead a group must be the best among that group, in the job that group performs. I think this is an error. Taking your best coder and then spending their time on not-coding is wasteful of their talents. Furthermore, insofar as you create competition to hold that position, you're creating a destructive work environment. Software development is a cooperative activity that can't be…

>>Taking your best coder and then spending their time on not-coding is wasteful of their talents.

Or the way I look at it, such a guy in a leader ship position can mentor young passionate folks to be just like him.

>>Furthermore, insofar as you create competition to hold that position

Having competent guys compete for a position is far better than promoting a total idiot to lead such guys.

>>you're creating a destructive work environment.

How is appointing a competent guy creating a destructive work environment, and appointing an incompetent guy not creating a demotivating environment.

Most demotivating part of my day is when I spend time with my higher ups, explaining them some very basics things like SQL or regular expressions or about network call latency which most of the times they have no clue of. Many times its so bad, you really have to talk to them like you talk to your 9 year old nephew and even after hours of explaining things are so bad they can't really get simple things like the difference between a DOM parser and a SAX parser.

I am not saying the guy must code like a champion 24x7. But he should have atleast been some one who has built a thing or two under tough demanding deadlines. Some one who has leaned stuff doing it by experience and not just some guy whose only known accomplishment is being at the right place at the right time, riding an economic wave or being some god father manager's yes man.

>>Software development is a cooperative activity that can't be efficiently partitioned.

Exactly that is why we need one of us to lead us.

Re: VP of Engineering - "best of the best" = no more than 12 years experience?

#125

One way to interpret this is that the Agile Manifesto was published in 2001, so although it's possible you managed agile teams before 2001 it's unlikely, or if you've been successfully managing agile teams since before the manifesto and you're interested in a startup... what's wrong w/ you (seriously... if you're crushing it w/ agile for 12 years and now enterprises are all scrum-happy and you aren't making boatloads…

Nah... Lightweight processes were discussed as alternatives to waterfall way back in the 90s during my software engineering courses. "Rapid application development" and RAtional unified process were the "hot" lightweight methodologies when I started work in 1996. Scrum has been with us since 1995.

Agree, no debate about when you might have managed agile teams... could be you're Ken Schwaber (yeah, had to look up his name), but it then begs the 2nd question I raised... why would you want to do a startup? If you have 12+ years of experience with what is now a very hot process why, why?, WHY? would you want to work at a startup?

A VP role doesn't sound like a C role. It doesn't sound like a really big equity play. You're not going to be a founder w/ a big payout (probably). So why do it?

I'm repeating myself. It really doesn't matter at all... someone will apply or they will not and the company will hire the right person or they will not... you and I will go along with our lives just fine.

Re: VP of Engineering - "best of the best" = no more than 12 years experience?

#126
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> According to me anybody who claims to lead a group must be the best among that group, in the job that group performs. I think this is an error. Taking your best coder and then spending their time on not-coding is wasteful of their talents. Furthermore, insofar as you create competition to hold that position, you're creating a destructive work environment. Software development is a cooperative activity that can't be…

>>Taking your best coder and then spending their time on not-coding is wasteful of their talents. Or the way I look at it, such a guy in a leader ship position can mentor young passionate folks to be just like him. >>Furthermore, insofar as you create competition to hold that position Having competent guys compete for a position is far better than promoting a total idiot to lead such guys. >>you're creating a destruc…

> How is appointing a competent guy creating a destructive work environment, and appointing an incompetent guy not creating a demotivating environment.

Because you based it on competition.

Holding that position, which presumably comes with better pay, perks and a résumé line item, is a zero sum game.

Everything good that programmer A does for the company now directly disadvantages programmer B and vice versa.

Do you think this creates conditions conducive to cooperative efforts like developing and maintaining complex software?

If you want to pick a leader, pick a leader yourself. Boohoo, it's hard and you might hurt people's feelings. Well too bad. Picking leaders is itself an act of leadership. Too many senior managers shirk the responsibility of growing a cadre of good managers by connecting it all to numbers that encourage destructive behaviour. It's the lazy and gutless way to lead.

See Measuring and Managing Performance in Organizations for a full enumeration of why having people compete for a tech leadership job would easily destroy any small company.

Re: VP of Engineering - "best of the best" = no more than 12 years experience?

#127
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My co-founder was previously the (only) VP of Engineering (and did a great job), but we mutually parted ways after the Series B. These things happen... tl;dr, we are not "running through" them.

Your earliest press releases are from 2 years ago. How can you have lost that "only" VP of Engineering who as your co-founder was part of the team back then, be recruiting for the position a year ago, and be recruiting for the position now, but this time it is only been for the last 3 months ... well, I suppose you could have just not actively tried to fill the position during the gap, but that at least suggests it's…

That's because he (bob tekiela) was at 500friends until may of 2013.

In other words, op is lying/mistaken because we were not hiring for this role last year.

Re: VP of Engineering - "best of the best" = no more than 12 years experience?

#128
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Taking your best coder and then spending their time on not-coding is wasteful of their talents. Or the way I look at it, such a guy in a leader ship position can mentor young passionate folks to be just like him. >>Furthermore, insofar as you create competition to hold that position Having competent guys compete for a position is far better than promoting a total idiot to lead such guys. >>you're creating a destruc…

> How is appointing a competent guy creating a destructive work environment, and appointing an incompetent guy not creating a demotivating environment. Because you based it on competition. Holding that position, which presumably comes with better pay, perks and a résumé line item, is a zero sum game . Everything good that programmer A does for the company now directly disadvantages programmer B and vice versa. Do you…

You would be correct if compensation of any individual in our society would be independent of their title/position in the hierarchy. Unfortunately its not.

Either way competition is inevitable- If its not from the inside, it will be far worse- from the outside. And in most cases companies have to acqui-hire people or purchase out an entire product line because they just can't get innovation out of their own people.

But the sad fact is its not current employees are at fault here. Unless you are super foolish, why should you ever work hard when some guy who isn't doing 1/10th work you do or is 1/100th as competent take all the credit, money and power stealing your work? The net result is no one contributes, the company struggles and buys their life saving kits every now and them from the outside.

And no competent person will accept a incompetent person over them, especially when getting a job or doing a start up/side project is so easy these days. How many times have we seen companies that claim to hire all super candidates with all those algo/ds questions routinely acquire start ups at big prices, yet they can't get something half decent out of their super star regular hires.

If you look down below, you will see it all gets down to incompetent middle management.

>>Too many senior managers shirk the responsibility of growing a cadre of good managers by connecting it all to numbers that encourage destructive behavior.

No, they do it because they know competent folks will grow and become a threat do their positions.

Re: VP of Engineering - "best of the best" = no more than 12 years experience?

#129
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is appointing a competent guy creating a destructive work environment, and appointing an incompetent guy not creating a demotivating environment. Because you based it on competition. Holding that position, which presumably comes with better pay, perks and a résumé line item, is a zero sum game . Everything good that programmer A does for the company now directly disadvantages programmer B and vice versa. Do you…

You would be correct if compensation of any individual in our society would be independent of their title/position in the hierarchy. Unfortunately its not. Either way competition is inevitable- If its not from the inside, it will be far worse- from the outside. And in most cases companies have to acqui-hire people or purchase out an entire product line because they just can't get innovation out of their own people. B…

I really think you should read that book I mentioned. It's by Robert D Austin, published by Dorset House.

Re: VP of Engineering - "best of the best" = no more than 12 years experience?

#130
post #121

This is totally off topic, and might be considered a rant, but I see this from time-to-time in startup land. Not understanding titles. First, this is for a "vp of engineering" that is "hands on". Are you really looking for an architect that codes? Perhaps a Sr. Engineer/Team lead? Do the engineers directly report to this "vp of engineering"? What happens when the team gets to big? Second, you are locking yourself int…

>>First, this is for a "vp of engineering" that is "hands on". Are you really looking for an architect that codes? Sorry but why can't a VP of engineering be somebody who should code(even if occasionally) or some who could be competent at a code review. Its precisely this kind of attitude that gives ammunition to the MBA culture of appointing people who are clueless about their current job to manage the best people u…

> According to me anybody who claims to lead a group must be the best among that group, in the job that group performs.

I'm sorry, and this is going to sound harsh, but this is awful, awful advise. And pitifully shortsighted.

So, a manager that leads developers should be the best developer?

What about a director that manages developers AND architects? Or developers AND QA? Does the director have to be the best at both those functions? Or some "best of the combination" of the two?

What about the VP? Now the VP of engineering likely leads (in a large enough organization) directors of QA, engineering, product, maybe some other roles like IS as well. In turn, they might lead managers or some function directly. Is this VP the uber of all those roles?

And then we get to the CEO.

No, this is terribly short sighted. Amazingly so.

In sports is quite commonly known that the best players usually make terrible managers. There are quite a few theories on why, but the end result is that very few great players have been great managers (oddly enough, MLB has more ex-player managers than the other leagues, and is more immune to the above criticism...again, many theories why). In fact, quite a few of the best managers in some sports are typically borderline players, if they played at all. Using your "best should lead" theory, only the best ex-basketball, ex-football, ex-baseball players should be running teams in the NBA, NFL or MLB.

No, the best leaders should lead. Doesn't matter if they are not the best developers And how good a developer one was becomes irrelevant past "team lead" or manager at best.

Post reply on HN