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Changing The Creepy Guy Narrative

chrisbrecheen.blogspot.com.au

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Re: Changing The Creepy Guy Narrative

#31

Post by michaelochurch »

fosap wrote: post #29
michaelochurch wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of negates the whole "I'm not a sexist" take on the situation. If you're going to write about how much of a chivalrous guy you are, you should probably also be more careful with the way you describe the thin skirts that you like so much. I agree with you. If someone (male or female) were writing about an interaction with the genders reversed, you probably wouldn't hear anything about how good-looking the guy was…

The outer appearance of the two people interacting are descried. There is even a picture illustrating how the man looked like. How this is sexism against the woman is beyond me. How this is sexism at all. This seems to be a feminist keen-jerk reaction. Outer appearance of a somebody? That somebody happens to be a woman? What a misogynist!

I didn't claim he was a misogynist. There's no evidence of that. Now that is an overused word.

Our culture is sexist, and all of us are (in daily practice) to some degree. With women, there's a strong focus on their attractiveness that doesn't exist for men. For just one example relative to this society (not OP) people don't infer radically different personalities for men based on attractiveness (except, perhaps, for the top and bottom couple of percent) but they do for women.

Yes, I think that, based on the totality of the OP, there's a latent sexism in the way the encounter was presented.

Re: Changing The Creepy Guy Narrative

#32

Post by foobarbazqux »

fosap wrote: post #29
michaelochurch wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of negates the whole "I'm not a sexist" take on the situation. If you're going to write about how much of a chivalrous guy you are, you should probably also be more careful with the way you describe the thin skirts that you like so much. I agree with you. If someone (male or female) were writing about an interaction with the genders reversed, you probably wouldn't hear anything about how good-looking the guy was…

The outer appearance of the two people interacting are descried. There is even a picture illustrating how the man looked like. How this is sexism against the woman is beyond me. How this is sexism at all. This seems to be a feminist keen-jerk reaction. Outer appearance of a somebody? That somebody happens to be a woman? What a misogynist!

On the surface I agree about the statement - I love women's dresses as much as any heterosexual man - but consider what the attractiveness means in the context of the story. She has to be attractive to be the princess. It's not sexism to make that remark, but it was a sexist situation - two men fighting over an attractive woman's affections like a prize.

Re: Changing The Creepy Guy Narrative

#33

Post by JulianMorrison »

foobarbazqux wrote: post #30
JulianMorrison wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Empowered" is such guff. Here's the point: if she does anything short of drawing a weapon on him, there are men out there, lots of men out there, who will chance taking it physical in order to resist having their dominance questioned. And society will take the man's side. She provoked him. She was impolite. She emasculated him. It's like the game of "cat and mouse" in Red Dwarf, the only way to win is not to be the…

To empower means to give power. It's empowering for the hero to support her while she stands up to him.

Far from it.

What's empowering is feminism. Fighting the slow fight to crush and erase this male centered culture.

A man, standing up for her? If he chose that particular patronizing way, she'd be well justified in worrying he too was trying it on - the "hero saves princess, gets the girl" narrative. Out of the frying pan…

And yeah, it's patronizing, because it reckons she chose her choices from weakness or timidity rather than a well calibrated judgment of her chances in this sexist society.

Re: Changing The Creepy Guy Narrative

#34

Post by foobarbazqux »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #33
foobarbazqux wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To empower means to give power. It's empowering for the hero to support her while she stands up to him.

Far from it. What's empowering is feminism. Fighting the slow fight to crush and erase this male centered culture. A man, standing up for her? If he chose that particular patronizing way, she'd be well justified in worrying he too was trying it on - the "hero saves princess, gets the girl" narrative. Out of the frying pan… And yeah, it's patronizing, because it reckons she chose her choices from weakness or timidity…

I think my post must have been poorly worded. I meant to give her agency by encouraging her to stand up to him, instead of for him to do it (which is what happened).

If you disagree, okay, but what better actions could he have taken in this situation?

Re: Changing The Creepy Guy Narrative

#35

Post by JulianMorrison »

foobarbazqux wrote: post #34
JulianMorrison wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far from it. What's empowering is feminism. Fighting the slow fight to crush and erase this male centered culture. A man, standing up for her? If he chose that particular patronizing way, she'd be well justified in worrying he too was trying it on - the "hero saves princess, gets the girl" narrative. Out of the frying pan… And yeah, it's patronizing, because it reckons she chose her choices from weakness or timidity…

I think my post must have been poorly worded. I meant to give her agency by encouraging her to stand up to him, instead of for him to do it (which is what happened). If you disagree, okay, but what better actions could he have taken in this situation?

No, I understood exactly that. You can't "give her agency". "Encouraging her to stand up to him" is exactly the wrong thing to do, she's chosen her choices as an adult who knows the score, and doing that is implying she just lacks the gumption and if only a dude was backing her up… No, it's not that easy. You may be the best intentioned dude in the world but you are ONE dude, and no, she is not going to suddenly start acting like a woman in a non sexist society at the risk of her own life, just because of one dude nominally taking her side.

Re: Changing The Creepy Guy Narrative

#36

Post by foobarbazqux »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #35
foobarbazqux wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think my post must have been poorly worded. I meant to give her agency by encouraging her to stand up to him, instead of for him to do it (which is what happened). If you disagree, okay, but what better actions could he have taken in this situation?

No, I understood exactly that. You can't "give her agency". "Encouraging her to stand up to him" is exactly the wrong thing to do, she's chosen her choices as an adult who knows the score, and doing that is implying she just lacks the gumption and if only a dude was backing her up… No, it's not that easy. You may be the best intentioned dude in the world but you are ONE dude, and no, she is not going to suddenly star…

Ok, but I'm still genuinely curious if you have an answer to my previous question.

Re: Changing The Creepy Guy Narrative

#37

Post by JulianMorrison »

fosap wrote: post #15
foobarbazqux wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, it's sexist to thank God for the physical qualities of the opposite sex? Thank God for the physical qualities of the opposite sex. (Or evolution, whatever.)

It follows a feminist narrative where woman are asexual beings and sex is something only men like and force upon women. (sex-negative feminism) In such a narrative every statement of attractiveness is ultimately a outing a want-to-be rapist or a predator. If you are in such a narrative it also makes perfect sense to say it's sexist. Outside of that narrative hardly.

The feminist narrative is that women would like a bit of consent with their sex, thank you very much. That includes eye sex.

Re: Changing The Creepy Guy Narrative

#38

Post by JulianMorrison »

foobarbazqux wrote: post #36
JulianMorrison wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I understood exactly that. You can't "give her agency". "Encouraging her to stand up to him" is exactly the wrong thing to do, she's chosen her choices as an adult who knows the score, and doing that is implying she just lacks the gumption and if only a dude was backing her up… No, it's not that easy. You may be the best intentioned dude in the world but you are ONE dude, and no, she is not going to suddenly star…

Ok, but I'm still genuinely curious if you have an answer to my previous question.

Oh, apologies, my eyes skipped over it.

Well, he did an effective thing. It's unfortunate he had to rely on homophobia to get the point across. That has been described as "the fear that another man will treat you like you treat women" and it's clear that's what stopped creepy guy here in his tracks. He sure didn't like it when the non-consensual boot was on the other foot!

Re: Changing The Creepy Guy Narrative

#39

Post by foobarbazqux »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #38
foobarbazqux wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but I'm still genuinely curious if you have an answer to my previous question.

Oh, apologies, my eyes skipped over it. Well, he did an effective thing. It's unfortunate he had to rely on homophobia to get the point across. That has been described as "the fear that another man will treat you like you treat women" and it's clear that's what stopped creepy guy here in his tracks. He sure didn't like it when the non-consensual boot was on the other foot!

Yeah, I also thought that was weird. I don't know any gay guys that would step in like that.

I found a much more in-depth discussion of the article on meta-filter, maybe it's interesting to you.

http://www.metafilter.com/129974/Changing-the-Creepy-Guy-Nar...

Re: Changing The Creepy Guy Narrative

#40

Post by foobarbazqux »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #37
fosap wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It follows a feminist narrative where woman are asexual beings and sex is something only men like and force upon women. (sex-negative feminism) In such a narrative every statement of attractiveness is ultimately a outing a want-to-be rapist or a predator. If you are in such a narrative it also makes perfect sense to say it's sexist. Outside of that narrative hardly.

The feminist narrative is that women would like a bit of consent with their sex, thank you very much. That includes eye sex.

A substantial part of feminist theory holds that intercourse is rape.
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