Live data from Hacker News

Link between quantum physics and game theory found

bristol.ac.uk

21–30 of 67 posts

Re: Link between quantum physics and game theory found

#21
post #12
post #6

I'm very interested in any theoretical connections between interactions of conscious beings and quantum physics. I've read a number of physicists discounting any such possibility, but it's clear to me nobody understands these things well enough to know. Personally I think consciousness, perception, and free will are a great unknown, and likely involve the makeup of the cosmos including quantum interactions. If anyone…

Roger Penrose has famously speculated on the connection between quantum physics and consciousness in his book "The emperor's new mind" and follow-ups, but as far as I know, the idea is not very highly regarded in the scientific community and the book is not very convincing either (IMHO).

The connection is also made by those who ascribe to Ramtha's "school of enlightenment," a pithy charade and oft-described cult.

Re: Link between quantum physics and game theory found

#22
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignorance isn't a concatenation operator.

Presumably you mean not disproving quantum involvement in consciousness doesn't imply it's existence. That's far more than this snipey comment deserves in the way of response, but feel free to form a thought here.

I was commenting (tersely but not with intentional snip) on this:

>Personally I think consciousness, perception, and free will are a great unknown, and likely involve the makeup of the cosmos including quantum interactions.

You're taking a whole slew of things we're ignorant about, waving your hands and saying,"They must be related to some great truth hidden in particle physics!" I find this kind of thinking bizarre.

Re: Link between quantum physics and game theory found

#24
post #6

I'm very interested in any theoretical connections between interactions of conscious beings and quantum physics. I've read a number of physicists discounting any such possibility, but it's clear to me nobody understands these things well enough to know. Personally I think consciousness, perception, and free will are a great unknown, and likely involve the makeup of the cosmos including quantum interactions. If anyone…

I'd say consciousness and perception form the illusion of free will, but it (free will) is not a discoverable or knowable thing like the others.

I, too, am fascinated with what we may come to discover about ourselves, our minds, and our connections (both local and non-local) as we increase our quantum understanding.

Robert A. Burton's On Being Certain: Believing You Are Right Even When You're Not and A Skeptic's Guide to the Mind: What Neuroscience Can and Cannot Tell Us About Ourselves may interest you. Not exactly in the realm of quantum theory, but if you're interested in understanding consciousness and perception, you really can't go wrong with reading up on neuroscience and related philosophy fields (mind, consciousness, being, etc.).

Beyond that, I think you're going to want to look for works on quantum physics with relation to neuroscience, psychology, and philosophy. Here's an article from 2005: http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/360/1458/1309...

Roger Penrose has a few works on the subject of quantum theory and human consciousness (as mentioned by a sibling comment), and Max Tegmark argues against him, suggesting neurons are too warm to perform quantum computations. However, Henry Stapp (one of the authors of the linked article above), while admitting that Tegmark's work poses a significant problem for Penrose's theories, says his own theories are unaffected.

Despite that, there are perception issues (e.g., precognition) which offer curiosities regarding backward causality in time, on which discussion occurs to ponder potential quantum effects. Here, you'd want to look into quantum mechanics/theory and human perception.

Re: Link between quantum physics and game theory found

#25
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like the "link" is "quantum-entangled systems can transfer information useful to game players"

But that's obvious. The journalistic article isn't worth reading. I don't have access to the real paper, but it should be more interesting and informative.

arXiv: http://arxiv.org/abs/1210.1173

Re: Link between quantum physics and game theory found

#26
I can't comment on the supposed result this article claims, but really, locality?

Quantum mechanics is not a nonlocal theory. The result the article was referring to - Bell inequality - states simply that "No physical theory of local hidden variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of quantum mechanics."

The wording is important. You can have nonlocal hidden variables, or you can have.. local theories without hidden variables. The most famous of the latter would be MWI.

Re: Link between quantum physics and game theory found

#27
post #13

>Next, by bringing quantum mechanics into the game, the researchers showed that players who can use quantum resources, such as entangled quantum particles, can outperform classical players. That is, quantum players achieve better performance than any classical player ever could. Classical players can build a classical computer which simulates quantum computers. Of course, I really should read the paper instead of zer…

Actually this is not possible for some definition of possible (mainly performance). Feynman showed that you get an exponential slowdown when simulating QM with a classical computer: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~christos/classics/Feynman.pdf

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_quantum_simulator

In this particular case I don't think a quantum computer is necessarily any help (so simulating it won't work either) but rather exploiting nonlocality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_nonlocality).

Re: Link between quantum physics and game theory found

#28
My interpretation of this for those with a bit of game theory background:

Locality (in physics) can be translated (in game theory) as a constraint on correlated equilibria, by pretty basic observations about Bayesian probability.

Generally in game theory when you lift constraints on correlated equilibria you (weakly) expand the possible Nash equilibria.

So one of their points seems to be that the quantum context (non-locality) allows for more (potentially better) equilibria.

They don't emphasize applications of this, but one of them could be that distributed quantum systems could have better outcomes than distributed systems in the classical setting. (One way to analyze distributed systems is by viewing components as independent actors in a game.)

There is also an identification between payoff functions and Bell inequalities, but I am not sure how profound this is really. It feels more like a technical point. Payoff functions are not terribly fundamental in game theory (compared to equilibria, for instance).

Re: Link between quantum physics and game theory found

#29

Now pseudo-intellectuals can double the quantum woo!

While this is a very obvious joke, that contains a lot of truth, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Humans are functionally better than (current) computers at GO[1]. The reasons for this are your answer (and I might be talking about 'GO' type Games, rather than merely the Game of Stones).

And, being honest: you've no chance of cracking even weak AI before you understand the homo sapiens consciousness a little better[2]. It's more powerful than you think (by a fairly large magnitude, with no hesitation to say this. A large margin.): 'autistic savants' are often used as a measure of this[3], but they're actually not so interesting. There's a lot more NP problems in that noggin of yours, and a lot more potential.

Anyhow, last comment. Have fun, and remember to salt the fries - and more importantly, enjoy yourself and feel connected to things and other consciousnesses[4].

Be Seeing You.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Go#Why_humans_are_.28... [2]Hint sheet: And you might not need to if you do. [3]http://www.stephenwiltshire.co.uk/ [4]Spoilers: that's part of the solution.

Re: Link between quantum physics and game theory found

#30
(from http://arxiv.org/pdf/1210.1173v1.pdf)

However, in certain cases the players may adapt their strategy depending on a piece of advice. The latter is delivered to all players by an advisor. This opens the possibility for the players to adopt correlated strategies, which can outperform independent strategies. There are various forms that advice can take. For example in the case of correlated classical advice, the advice is represented by a classical variable, l, with prior r(l). Each player can then choose a strategy depending on his type and on l.

...

For Bayesian games, the possibility of having access to nonlocal correlations, for instance using entanglement, has important implications. First let us imagine that the players can share quantum advice, that is, the advisor is able to produce entangled particles and to send them to the players, who then perform local measurements on their particles. Since the statistics of such measurements can in general not be reproduced by any classical local model, the players now have access to strategies which would be impossible in the case of a classical advisor. Thus, players sharing quantum advice can outperform any classical players.

So, if some players have information that other players don't, they can outperform the others? Astonishing :-|

Post reply on HN